Too Fast for Words: A Cluttering Story

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Kate Grandbois: [00:02:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to SLP Nerdcast. We're super excited for today's episode. We have the pleasure of welcoming a special guest, Rutger Wilhelm. Welcome, Rutger. 

Rutger Wilhelm: so much. Well, thanks for having me, of course. 

Kate Grandbois: We're very excited to have you. We, uh, as we mentioned before we started this recording, we, I think we meant to record this three or four months ago, and between snow storms and illnesses, we had to reschedule a million times.

So we're so glad, uh, to all be in this room today and have it all work out. Before we get started, Rutger, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Rutger Wilhelm: Here, of course. Well, yeah, so, um, yes, yes. So, yeah, you know, well, first of all, actually, sorry about this. First of all, you know, I'm Dutch, you know, so, you know, so I may, you know, you know, have to look for, search for some words, um, you know, during my, my, my talk here, basically.

So, you know, you know, so, so people would know this, of course. And, and, and of course, Also a person with cluttering. And I, yeah, so I have had that [00:03:00] for my, my entire life, of course, right. But I only know about, I think since, I mean, 12 years ago or something for the first time, you know, I heard that, that, that term and, you know, and, and actually since then, you know, things, things started rolling for me basically.

Right. So I started, you know, to look for my, for more information about that, you know, I, uh, well, Actually I started joining, you know, some, some, some stuttering organization as well. So, uh, so for example, I started, uh, in the, uh, consumer committee of the ICA, which is the International Coloring Association.

Um, and also the, the ISA, you know, so, so the International Stuttering Association, for example. Um, and um, also in, I'm also in Dutch Southern Association by the way. Yeah. You know, so, so in all kinds of, of, of, of, you know, organizations, and now I'm by the way, also in the world, starting to encounter an organization in the, in the consumer committee.

So, yeah, so, so pretty much everywhere, uh, you know, but, uh, but, you know, for me, of [00:04:00] course, it's, you know, so the overall goal for me, of course, is to. Um, get the story out, you know, right. So, so, so, so to raise more awareness on cluttering because it's still, well, you know, still, still rather limited, you know, I mean, most people don't know that, you know.

You know, a thing about it. So, yeah. So for me, that, that is really important. And I think I can close, close to, you know, this answer by saying, you know, that, that I have, you know, um, had lots of questions and lots of, well, also difficulties, of course, in the past, you know, uh, with Dullering. So. Yeah. Let's maybe, you know, talk, talk about that, for example, um, further.

Kate Grandbois: That's going to be great. Um, we are also joined today by my co host, uh, Dr. Ana Paula Moomey, uh, welcome Ana Paula. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. As our audience knows, I know very, very little about anything in the realm of, uh, stuttering and [00:05:00] especially cluttering, so I'm very much, uh, looking forward to this conversation and learning a lot from both of you today, for sure.

Uh, before we get into the good stuff, I do need to read our learning objectives. Learning objective number one. List at least one variable that may have an impact on the lives of a person who clutters. And learning objective number two, list at least one way an individual's experience with cluttering might differ between childhood and adulthood. 

Ana Paula Mumy: Let's start with your story, Rutger. I'd love to hear any part of your story that you are willing to share. Um, and just start at the beginning or wherever you'd like. 

Rutger Wilhelm: Sure. Okay. Well, thanks, Anna. Well, look, okay, you know, so I think it'll start it. Well, um, I think we don't, when I was about eight years old or something, eight, nine, ten years old, you know, and Because, well, obviously, you know, my, me and my parents, of course, and my, you know, and my peers and so on, you know, they had noticed something, you know, that something was wrong, you know, in my [00:06:00] speech, you know, and of course, I had, you know, the same feeling and the same, you know, the same experiences as well, but I didn't, you know, really.

know what what what it was basically, you know, I mean, I knew, you know, that, you know, that I was sort of stuttering or something, you know, but I never, you know, got stuck in my words, for example, you know, and I also knew, of course, you know, that I was speaking so really fast, but I never knew how fast it was, right, you know, so, and that is also, you know, one of the most tricky things in cluttering, I think, you know, because most people clutter don't don't clutter.

Don't understand or don't, don't, don't realize how, how fast they're, they're, they're going, uh, or, or, or, you know, in other words, you know, how, how their environment, for example, sees them a, as a speaker or, or, you know, or, or experience that, you know, uh, so how those words and those stories of people clutterer, you know, actually, We don't, uh, uh, come across to that basically.

So, you know, and that that [00:07:00] is also a very, very important part. Also, of course, the therapy later on, but also, you know, back then, you know, when I was younger. So, you know, so again, I, I just noticed all kinds of complaints from other people as well. Also, you know, um, For myself and um, you know, so I sort of when I was older, I think it was, you know, like 13 years old or something.

I went into therapy for the first time in my life, you know, so I went to a. You know, really seasoned lady, she was really experienced and so on, but she had only experience with stuttering, you know, with, with people stutter, you know, so she basically, what, what she did was, well, make me, make, make me do all kinds of exercise, do all kinds of exercises, you know, and she actually, you know, asked me to do the stuttering exercises instead of the, you know, the, uh, things that I actually needed, which were, of course, decluttering exercises.

But, but, but back then there was no, well, I mean, not so much, so much knowledge at least on, on, on [00:08:00] decluttering, of course. So, yeah, you know, so, so this lady, you know, didn't, didn't actually, didn't really understand my, my question or my problems. Right. Yeah. Well, you know, so, so, yes. And so I, um, didn't. Uh, well, um, you, yeah, you didn't know exactly you, you know, how to move on, uh, basically from, um, after that.

And so, yeah. You know, there was a whole, whole period of searching, you know, searching for the right therapy, searching for the right solution, basically, because I, I, I felt some, somehow I felt inside, you know, that I wasn't a true stutterer of course, you know, so I. I felt that there should be a solution somewhere, but I didn't, you know, just didn't know where to go or, you know, and so, and yeah, you know, and then after a few therapies, which were all focused on stuttering things, so, so for example, breathing techniques or, or, uh, what was it called again?

You know, the, oh yeah, the easy onset. Do you all know [00:09:00] that? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so actually starting off with a, yeah. Uh, a smooth software, smooth start and you know, of, of, of your, uh, sentence or your words. And, but, but those, those techniques didn't really address my core problem because coloring, of course, is, is well, you know, very much, um, bound to, well also language planning for, for me, uh, you know, for, for me, leads, you know, language planning is the most important part.

There are also things like, you know, uh, you know, the. Articulation, for example, so for the logical part of gathering. But for me, for me, it was really the other part. And so, um, yeah, and And so I just was on the outlook for a solution again, which I found only when I was 34 years old, you know, so I was at a meeting somewhere from the Dutch Association, by the way, and then, you know, some, some, some lady told me, you know, you know, she actually said to me, Rutger, I don't know you, [00:10:00] but I have the feeling that you don't stutter, but you clutter.

So, and then, you know, I was like, I do what? I'm sorry. I'm cluttering, you know, and then, then the whole process started for me, you know, and then, you know, like I told you already, I was, you know, diving into all kinds of books and all kinds of, you know, stories from, you know, from, from, from theorists, from, from, from, from, from researchers, basically, but what I was lacking as well was what were the stories of the, of the real people, but, you know, people who clutter.

So, and that's why I, You know, wrote my, my, my, my own book about this, but you know, that's, that's for later. So, yeah. So again, the whole process of, of about 25 years of, yeah, just not knowing what, what, what, what, what, what was the matter with me? Um, yeah, so I think that, that is the first answer to, to your question.

Ana Paula Mumy: I would love to hear then, so you essentially were diagnosed incorrectly, right? Or when [00:11:00] the, when you were evaluated, um, the diagnosis that came was that you are stuttering, not, um, there was never any mention of Is that correct? Exactly. That's correct. Okay. I am interested to know. You said I knew intuitively or in your heart.

Like, I'm not stuttering. Like, this is not right. Um, so, like, what were some of the characteristics just to you. Differentiate, I think for our listeners, what are the things that were most evident in your speech that maybe differ from stuttered speech? If you could elaborate on that, I think that would be helpful for our listeners.

Rutger Wilhelm: Sure, sure, sure. Okay. Well, well, first of all, you know the, the pace of speech, you know. Yeah. Well wait. Well end up well, you know. Well, you know, so for example. In, in stuttering, you know, people with, with, with, with stuttering. They, they, they have a, you know, a much lower, you know, uh, pace of speaking of course, which is also much more constant.

Right. So, so, so in cluttering basically, you know, your, your speech, uh, I mean, [00:12:00] sorry, your, uh, rate speech is too high, but also to, let's say in, let's say. What's the word again? Sorry. Uh, you know, it varies a lot, you know, so sometimes it's really fast and sometimes it's somehow slower or something. But so the average, the average speed is still too high, you know what I mean?

And there are many spurs as well in my speech. And so that, that is the first, well, the first, uh, well, main, main character, basically a feature. And also, uh, in, in coloring, um, you know, uh, people take too, too, too few pulses, for example, or they take their, their, their pulses in the wrong way. Uh, so maybe too long sometimes as well.

Or, or too few, too few policies and so on. So, so that, that's also a main characteristic. Um, but I would also say, of course, again, that, that, that language planning, right? So, well, actually, yeah, you know, planning your, your, your entire story. So from the beginning to the end, basically, and [00:13:00] all the steps in between, but also, you know, retrieving words from your.

I think it's called the, the, the lexicon. Well, I'm sure you, you, you know, you would know that, but so, uh, actually just, just, um, retrieving words from your brain, uh, that also is suboptimal, so to speak, in gathering speakers. So it takes more time. To do that. Um, yeah. And so, and, but also, you know, what I just mentioned again, the auditory feedback part, right?

So we don't hear ourselves, uh, back the same way as you, for example, hear, hear me talking right now. So, and that, that's really important as well, because then. You know, uh, are, are sometimes lacking the urgency of doing something about it. You know, and, but, and, and also I think what's, what's really important is to, um, yeah, to, um, uh, mention, you know, that people with thundering are by nature [00:14:00] are, I think are more extroverted than, you know, than, than people who are stuttering or, you know, that's a bit of the.

The, the ag, chicken, chicken store or something, do you know what I mean? So, what, what is the beginning? Is it, you know, uh, because Sutter, you know, the people who Sutter I know are, are a much more introvert, in my opinion at least, and they are, you know, uh, yeah, I, you know, they, They don't tend to talk that much, uh, but is it because of them stuttering or is it just because of their nature?

That's also a question for, for me. But anyway, the, the, the people I know who clutter, at least they're all extroverted, uh, you know, tend to talk a lot as well, like me again. And, you know, so, yeah, so they, they actually don't have any problems or fear of speaking as well. Whereas stuttering people's People do have that much more often, you know, but, but clutter can have the fear of being ignored, you know, by other people because, you know, [00:15:00] well, um, well, you know, I mean, you know, they would all know, you know, examples, for example, of people walking away from, from a conversation or just, you know, saying nothing to them or, you know, Or, you know, or, or, uh, frowning their eye, their, their eyes and their eyebrows, you know?

And so, and you know, so, um, and, and those are, are, are all signs of, you know, um, uh, of, uh, things that, that, that they are thinking but not saying to people clutter, right? Yeah. You know, maybe, we'll, we'll, we'll come to that later on as well in this, in this podcast. But, uh, yeah. So, so, so there are actually many features of cluttering that are much different from stuttering.

Ana Paula Mumy: I think one key just, um, from my perception based on what you said, that you never felt stuck. And I think that's one. really key characteristic with stuttering is that internal sense of being stuck and that loss of control that comes with that stuck feeling. And so that might be one distinguishing [00:16:00] feature.

Um, and like you said, the either fast pace, the irregular pace, um, certainly being a big part of that. And, um, as you mentioned, just the, um, the planning piece in. Being able to get out what you want to say, um, in a way that is sequenced or organized and so on. So certainly, um, that's a good. Those are great distinctions.

I think that's important to point out. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Kate Grandbois: I had a question. I am wondering the process of receiving a more accurate diagnosis. Was that a really, how did that impact you? Was, I assume that that was a positive experience, um, in, in a lot of ways, but could you talk a little bit about what the impact was for receiving a more accurate diagnosis?

Rutger Wilhelm: Well, to me, it was, you know, huge to 

Ana Paula Mumy: Would you say [00:17:00] that you have any, um, co-occurrence of stuttering in terms of, uh, repetitions or like, does your cluttering, um, appear to be stuttering in some moments or what does that look like? 

Rutger Wilhelm: Oh, yeah, sure. You know? Yeah. You know, yeah. You know, so for example, what I'm, well, uh, tense, for example, you know, or, or when, when I'm afraid or, you know, or something.

Yeah. You know, then my, my cluttering gets worse, and then it, it can also. Well, almost jump into stuttering as well, you know, so, so again, I don't have too many stuttering stuttering moments or something or stutters, but I, you know, but I, but I can quite easily some sometimes enter into stuttering as well.

And then, you know, you know, this is some kind of official circle, you know, then, yeah, think, think, think, start to Yeah. Cool. I mean, then I'm going to, to, to stutter as well. So, uh, yeah, so, you know, that, that depends on the circumstances, uh, yeah, that I'm in. But in general, I, I don't really [00:18:00] have, you know, much, much stuttering, uh, features or something, or something.

Yeah, and, and so my therapist, she, she actually also called me a, a pure stutterer. Uh, but, you know, but, yeah, like now, for example, I'm, you know, I, I, you know, there's this small, this small, um, Hiccup, right. At least. Alright. It's a small stuttering hiccup, perhaps. Uh, yeah, so, so I, I can also show some stuttering, uh, uh, features perhaps.

Ana Paula Mumy: Mm-hmm . I think one key just, um, from my perception based on what you said, that you never felt stuck. And I think that's one. really key characteristic with stuttering is that internal sense of being stuck and that loss of control that comes with that stuck feeling. And so that might be one distinguishing feature.

Um, and like you said, the either fast pace, the irregular pace, um, certainly being a big part of that. And, um, as you mentioned, just the, um, the planning piece in. Being able [00:19:00] to get out what you want to say, um, in a way that is sequenced or organized and so on. So certainly, um, that's a good. Those are great distinctions.

I think that's important to point out. 

Rutger Wilhelm: Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

Kate Grandbois: I had a question. I am wondering the process of receiving a more accurate diagnosis. Was that a really, how did that impact you? Was, I assume that that was a positive experience, um, in, in a lot of ways, but could you talk a little bit about what the impact was for receiving a more accurate diagnosis?

Rutger Wilhelm: Well, to me, it was, you know, huge to be honest, it was, you know, such a relief, you know, because, you know, finally, I, well, I learned, you know, that there was something that I was doing, right? So, finally, I learned that there was a name for it in the first place, right? So, I, well, yeah, you know, so, well, well, yeah, so, you know, just to give you an [00:20:00] example, you know, when I was, um, in a stuttering therapy before, for example, you know, I just noticed that all the stuttering, Uh, well, colleagues of mine or, you know, the peers, salary peers of mine, they, they, they very, very often said to me, you know, Rutger, why don't you just slow down, for example, because then, you know, then it's, it's just, you know, then, then your problem is, is, is, is, is gone, basically.

And, um, you know, so, but that, that is not, you know, That, that easy for, for, for people to do. So I, I just felt a lack of understanding, you know what I mean? And, and that was, well, you know, for, for a long time, you know, so like, like, like 25 years, I didn't felt, felt, understood. I didn't felt recognized for the way I was talking.

So, yeah. So then when this, uh, diagnosis came, I, I was just, you know, you know, you know. I was driving back home and all, all I was thinking was, you see, I don't stutter. I just don't stutter. You know, there was a solution for me. I clutter apparently, [00:21:00] but you know, there was a solution for me to, you know, to, to, to hold on to and, and to improve my way of speaking basically as well.

And of course, also improving parts of my life with that. So yeah, to me, it was just, um, awesome.

Kate Grandbois: Thank you for sharing that. I, I, I would imagine so. Um, and I'm so glad that you were able to go on that journey. I think it's an important question for those who are listening, who are likely clinically practicing speech language pathologists, just to think about the impact of being thoughtful about our diagnostic processes and what knowledge we're bringing to the table to make sure we're working within our expertise and moving through that accurately.

So thank you for sharing that.

Ana Paula Mumy: What would you say, um, thinking about our audience of SLPs, uh, what would you say would be really crucial, uh, suggestions or tips or just things to consider [00:22:00] as we are working with people who stutter, who may also clutter or who may be what you call pure clutters? Um, what, what would be some things that you would share that would be important for SLPs to know?

Rutger Wilhelm: Well, first, of course, I think, you know, well, you know, be, you know, like, like Kate already said, you know, be, be open to, to, to more, you know, stories and, of course, more, more information about, about, you know, a sort of new condition that is out there, you know, that, that is really important because you can help, you know, people who were misdiagnosed in the past, you know, uh, as well.

So that I think that that's really important to say. And of course, also, you know, it is possible to. So for, for, for your audience, you know, to, to help people who clutter. So it's possible for them as well to take more control over their lives. It's not easy, but, but, but it's, I mean, it's, it's partly possible.

So for me as well, you know, so for example, well, you know, no, no, I feel, I'm [00:23:00] feeling as well, you know, that I'm quite aroused, you know, I'm, you know, my, my, my, my energy level is quite high. Uh, you know, and by my picture off of speaking is quite high, maybe as well, but, for example, what I'm going to work, you know, then I'm so focused, you know, I I just know that at work, I don't clutter, or at least I almost don't clutter there because I know what to do.

I know how to focus actually, you know, uh, so, and then for example, my, I'm using lower speech. No, like I'm doing now. So then I'm focusing much more on the planning part as well. So this is how I'm talking at work, right? And then, um, you know, then I, I, I, it feels like I'm in some kind of a lazy chair. You know what I mean?

It feels like I'm not, you know, people don't get me out of that because I'm just so confident then. Anything could happen, you know, but I'm just in my, in my, in my, in my chair, you know, and so that, that, that is [00:24:00] how it feels, but, but, but of course, that is something that, that I needed to learn, of course, obviously, um, by, uh, again, by, by, by, well, um, uh, by, by showing, you know, some, some speech techniques, of course, as well, um, um, Yeah, so I would say focus on these techniques as well, but, uh, obviously also focus on the mental part of it because it's not easy to basically change your, your way of speaking.

So, for example, you know, I always get the, the, this example, if I would, would, would ask you, um, for the next hour. We don't, which is nothing. It's only one hour. You know, this is not, not your entire life, but it's only one hour to talk, for example, like this all the time. So you should talk, you know, very, you know, very, uh, I don't know the word, but, you know, 

Ana Paula Mumy: robotic, 

Rutger Wilhelm: robotic, exactly.

Which is, you know, this, this is difficult for you, you know, even for [00:25:00] one minute, perhaps even for 10 minutes as well. But, you know, so, so imagine, you know, That, you know, you're, you're asking somebody to change their, their way, their speaking habits. Basically, you know, meant for their entire life. So again, that is very difficult, but it's possible for them to, to, to, to showcase these techniques when they want it, when they need it, for example.

So for example, in job interviews or, you know, getting presentations or whatever. Um, yeah, so, um, so it's, it's not only about three seconds, but it's also about the mental part. Uh, off of that. And I also want to mention, you know, your environment. So, so how could they, um, uh, contribute to, to your, well, let's say journey or, uh, you know, uh, or improvements process or something, you know?

Um, so how could they, uh, well, you know, for example, give you some signs when you should slow down in a conversation or, [00:26:00] um, I don't know, you know, you don't, they're, um, There are many ways of anyway of helping people clutter. Um, you know, for parents, for example, I would say, or teachers, I would say, because this happens a lot, they often say, you know, why don't, why don't you slow down or, or slow down or, uh, you know, or, you know, it's, So it's also in the way of giving, giving feedback to people, clutter, uh, please, you know, use the, the right way of getting feedback.

So, you know, so to do that by the rules and what I mean by, by that is basically, you know, keep the things for yourself, please, at first. So don't say you should slow down or, you know, you are, you are the bad guy here, but just, I don't, I don't, don't understand you because, you know, because, yeah, you know, okay, you are going.

Too, too fast perhaps. And for, for my, um, you know, for me to, to, to, to, to [00:27:00] follow. For example, you know, these, those are, you know, the right things, but, but don't accuse people of speaking in the way they are. Just, you know, used to actually. So, um, yeah. Um, and yes, so yes. You know, so, so more in general, try to be, um.

Supportive, of course, as a parent, as a teacher, as a friend, and so on, as a family member as well to them. Uh, yeah, and, and, you know, last but, but not least, I would also, you know, mention this, this thing, because lately there is a, well, whole discussion going on in this, in historic landscape, right? It's about stigma.

I mean, yeah, I'm not sure if you heard about that, but stigma is a big thing now, and that, you know, means, well, Obvious, you know, um, the, the stigma that, that your environment puts on you. You know, like you are the stutter or you are the clutter, so you should fix that, for example. Right? And, and, and of course also the self stigma that, that, that, that, that we are, you know, um, you know, um, or a label [00:28:00] basically that, that we are putting on selves so and so and so from, to me, the question now has become as well, okay.

Although we know that, you know, uh, you know, you know, a person with with carbon can can do a lot about their, you know, his his speech impediment. Um, the question is also should they. Um, I mean, yeah. You know, yeah. Should they, they, they actually do that. Should they, I mean, why should they be, um, imposed? Or, or, or why, why do you know?

Why, why do people expect, you know, people clutter, for example, or people stutter to, to do something about it. Of course. I understand. You know, that that is not always. Uh, you know, comfortable for the audience or for the listeners. And of course, it's not always, you know, um, you know, uh, um, let's say easy to follow, easy to understand and, and, and difficult for other people [00:29:00] as well.

But, you know, um, and yes, it's, it's also true, you know, that, that it costs money for society and so long, but, you know, but, but you can't, you know, put the burden of that on people who stutter or people who stutter all the time. So, so the question is, why should we fix. Those problems. Uh, anyhow, basically, do you know what I'm saying?

But this again, this is a real sorry. This is a philosophical discussion, but I think this is also, you know, a very, very important question to ask, because I'm not asking, you know, a blind person, for example, to, you know, you know, that he should slightly see better, for example, as well, you know, I mean, this is an inherited condition.

You know, yeah. So, so, so, yeah. So again, you know, um, yeah, please bear this in mind as well. That's also one of my, my, uh, messages, if you will. 

Ana Paula Mumy: Yeah. I appreciate what [00:30:00] you were saying about, um, helping us become better listeners really is what it boils down to, right. Where I'm able to, yeah, I'm able to maybe ask for clarification or I'm able to indicate in some way that, I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand that or.

But maybe not offering the suggestions that aren't that helpful, because like you said, it's not like you're doing this on purpose, or it's not necessarily voluntary, and you may not be able to turn off or on, right, that easier or more for you. Um, paste a style of speaking, but then if you choose to do so great, or maybe you can do that if you choose to, to be able to, um, clarify or in some way repair the, the communication exchange, but, um, you're not saying to them, do this, do that.

Don't do this. Don't do [00:31:00] that. Right. 

Rutger Wilhelm: But, you know, but, okay, but, but, but having said that, you know, all of that before, you know, I think, you know, you know, I mean, yeah, I think it's still, you know, the responsibility of the people, of the person who cloud us as as, as well, of course, you know, to, to have a, well, you know, a, a, a fluent conversation, but, you know, it doesn't mean mean of course, fluent speech, but a fluent conversation.

So I think, you know, both, both the listener, but, but of course also the, the, the, the, you know, the, the, the person who's stuttering or cluttering, they're, they're both there in the conversations. So, so they're both. You know, in my view, of course, responsible for a, yeah, for a, you know, flowing, for the flowing, for a good, good communication.

Ana Paula Mumy: Yeah. I like how you said that. Not fluent speech, but fluent communication, right? In the sense that you're being understood, that there is an exchange that, you know, you're following, they're following, and there is that back and forth exchange that is comprehensible, right? Yeah. 

Rutger Wilhelm: Which also, you [00:32:00] know, sorry, you know, which also includes, of course, you know, the responsibility, I think, of the clouderer to understand what the listener is going through as well, right?

So yeah, so all the cues that he or she is giving, you know, that those are also important things for them to understand. So it's a mutual understanding and a mutual process. 

Ana Paula Mumy: Yeah, mutual responsibility for sure. In that exchange. Yeah, exactly. Mm 

Kate Grandbois: hmm. 

Ana Paula Mumy: What would you say? Um, the mental effort of using strategies?

Um, what is that like for you in terms of when you said, you know, I go to work and I'm you're much more maybe intentional or aware? Of how you're coming across or how you're communicating, maybe using more pauses. I think that's what I noticed most when you said this is how I talk at work, and there's a little bit more pauses, right?

And so how effortful is that for you? Would you say? Because I know, at least with [00:33:00] people who stutter, Um, some of the strategies or some of the things that they would do maybe intentionally, um, sometimes are very draining. So would you say that's the same for you? Is it something that's very effortful or do you feel like it's kind of become a part of what you do that's more natural?

Rutger Wilhelm: You know, uh, it's, it's, yeah, you know, in my view, at least, it's really important to do it.

Practice a lot, right? So I think in the first three months or so, you should really, you know, practice all these techniques a lot. And then it becomes much more natural to, to, to, to you, you know? So, you know, yeah. So, so like you were saying, um, you know, um, yeah. And once you know how, how things work and, you know, yeah, then, then it becomes more easy, but, but to me, So the most difficult part was, well, again, the mental part, you know, so, and so, and, you know, that includes, for example, things like, Oh, you know, questions like, okay, okay.

So what, what would people think about me right now? Right. [00:34:00] Or, or, or, or can they follow me or Or self blaming as well. So why, why can't I slow down? Why, why, why, why, why, you know, why don't, don't I have feel, have control over myself, for example, all these kinds of questions are there. And so, but also questions like when you're, for example, talking fluidly.

Or slowly, I must say, when you're talking more slowly, which is the main goal, you know, of course, in therapy as well, in the end, you know, then that feels so unnatural to most people, everyone I know, at least. And so, and that also takes, you know, some, some kind of switch in your brain, you know what I mean?

So, so that, so for example, uh, I had, you know, questions like, okay, oh, I'm, I'm talking too slow now, or I'm sounding like a robot. For example, or, you know, I'm not, not being, being myself right now. All these questions, you know, also, also are there. And, and again, what, what do people [00:35:00] think of that? You know, so, so it's, it's both, both, both sides of the coin basically.

And, but I learned to, yeah, to, to convince myself, you know, that people who, I mean, that people in your environment don't, you know, don't, don't. Don't, um, uh, well, you know, they don't care actually, you know, uh, when you're when you're slowing down. So, you know, so again, when I would, uh, talk like this again, it feels like it's so it feels so slow to me, right?

But, uh, and then in the past I have, you know, all these negative thoughts. Okay, so they are thinking bad of me or something, but that's not the case at all. And I also, you know, learned that by just asking people, what do you think of my, of my, um, You know, uh, pace, for example, and they were all so positive, right?

So, and that is also important, I think, to mention. So there are lots of, um, exercises or lots of mental exercises that you can do to, [00:36:00] to, to better train your brain. I would like to say that. 

Ana Paula Mumy: After a day at work, if you are monitoring your speech and being intentional about using pauses or whatever it is that you might be doing, um, do you feel Um, like it's taxing for you, like at the end of the day, are you tired?

Are you feeling like, oh, like I just have really had to be on all the time or, or do you not experience that? 

Rutger Wilhelm: In the beginning, I was, I was tired and I would say, you know, but, but, you know, but after a while, you know, again, you know, when, when, when you're getting, when you're getting used to, you know, to, to, to doing that, actually, I felt more and more energy, a lot, a lot of energy for whatever, you know, so, you know, because, uh, you know, the thing is, when you're cluttering, Again, with all these, all this negative thoughts in your, in your brain as well, that, that, that is a energy drainer as well.

Right. So that, that costs a lot of [00:37:00] energy as well. So, yeah, you know, so, so the question is, you know, in the end, what, what, um, is more energy consuming, uh, talking, uh, like, you know, You know, like cluttering or, or talking in a more, more controlled way. And now I would say the last one, you know, because it saves you, you know, from so much, so, yeah, so much, uh, negative feelings and so on as well.

Ana Paula Mumy: And maybe less frustration with people because they maybe are understanding more or you're having to provide less clarification, potentially. 

Rutger Wilhelm: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you're right.

Kate Grandbois: I know that you've been really open with your audience about your experiences and I, I wonder if you could share a little bit about what it's been like to be so forthcoming about your experiences with cluttering. Has it, has it [00:38:00] opened doors for you? Has it been a positive experience to share? 

Rutger Wilhelm: Good. You know, this is a very, very, very good question in my, in my view.

Yeah. Well, first of all, yes, you know, this has been a very, very, very positive journey as well, you know, because again, you know, to me, you know, the, the, the most important thing is just sharing the story again, you know, raising that awareness. And so, yes, you know, so what I noticed in the past, for example, I was, well, for example, I was.

laid off in jobs several times in a row because of the cluttering, you know, because, you know, people just, you know, couldn't understand me. And, you know, and so then, you know, after, after, after, after, you know, uh, having, having more, more control over it, uh, basically, I just noticed, you know, that, that, that people also valued me more as, as a person also at work, but especially, of course, in the stuttering community as well.

So, you know, so, People just, just value what I'm doing, apparently, which is really cool to me, right? And so, and that gives me so much confidence. And, [00:39:00] and actually, I wouldn't say, you know, you know, that, that, that the, well, you know, the, the having control over the cluttering part when I want it, has led to open doors, for example, to me.

But actually, I would say the confidence part has done that. So, you know, so yeah, you know, so because of. Um, me having having much more confidence now, I think, you know, that has opened open doors job wise or career wise, you know? So yeah, so this is for the first time, by the way, that I'm having a job now that lasts for seven years.

In the past, I was always one year or maybe two years or maybe three years. And then I was laid off again. Right? So, so this is much more steady, much more. Yeah. You know, uh, yeah, much more comfortable, actually. And so, and, and, and actually this is since, since eight years, I have a long, long term relationship as well.

You know, so yeah, there are all kinds of ways I have more friendships. I've, I just feel much more relaxed. There are, there's so many parts in [00:40:00] life that. You know, are, are much more positive for me right now. And again, it's, it's not because of the, of the, of, of, you know, the, the control part, but it's more of the, uh, about the, about the confidence part, I think.

Um, yeah, so, yeah, so, you know, look, looking back on, on the last 10 years, for example, I'm, I'm in a much better place now than I was before. 

Kate Grandbois: Thank you for sharing that. Um, for our listeners who are not, aware of your platform and you mentioned a book earlier, uh, for our listeners who are not aware of all of the channels through which you've shared your story and, and been more open about your cluttering, where can they find you?

Can you tell us a little bit about some of these additional resources that you've created, worked towards, posted, um, we would love to share them. 

Rutger Wilhelm: Sure. Of course. Well, well, you know, the main thing I think is a website, you know, yeah, you know, so from there, you know, people can can can find all kinds of resources like, you know, like, [00:41:00] like, like videos on my YouTube channel, for example, but there's also a self test, for example, on my website, you know, which, which, yeah, you know, you know, which is very easy, you know, it has like, like, like 20 questions in it or something, you know, so, you know, so that that gives you a preliminary, Well, result or outcome, you know, that could potentially, you know, lead to a, you know, diagnose, for example, of cluttering as well.

Um, but yeah, and there are also ebooks on my website. I've written two books about cluttering. So you're right. There's, you know, the original book, but there's also a, you know, sort of a Well, light version off of the book as well, you know, which, which is all about the explanation part basically. So, so without the experience part in it.

And, uh, and there's also a, a course that I made on cluttering very, very recently, by the way. Yeah. So, um. And it's also, uh, you know, by the way, a new book [00:42:00] coming up, which is like a workbook, you know, so, uh, with all kinds of, you know, exercises and assignments in it. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, so, so, so, so there was a lot for people to digest, I would say, but I would also, you know, like, like I mentioned, the ICA website, you know, also for SAP, by the way, because there's, you know, much more information, uh, on the, Theoretic part of Cluttering as well.

And, and there are, there's also one, one Facebook group, I believe it's, it is, it's called, um, Cluttering Speech, it's called, yeah. And there, there are also, you know, many, many more, you know, posts on, uh, in there. So yeah, so all in all, finally, there are, there, there are so many more, you know, things to look at for SLPs and also for.

You know, uh, um, you know, you know, the consumers, uh, so to speak. 

Kate Grandbois: That's awesome. We will list all of those references, uh, including your website and your YouTube channel in our show notes. So anyone who's listening while they're driving or [00:43:00] running or whatever it is people are doing, um, all of that will be listed and written down for you.

Before we say goodbye, are there any additional thoughts or shares that you would like to offer before, before the end? 

Rutger Wilhelm: Well, actually no. Yeah. Well, you know, I, I mean, you know, I'm sorry. I'm just, you know, you know, so, so, so, so, so thankful for this, for this podcast. Of course. Of you, you know, you are doing a tremendous work, uh, with this, so, yeah, yeah.

You know, so, so, so let's all just, you know, keep, you know, keep, um, sharing the, the world of cluttering, uh, obviously, um, yeah. You know, that could very, very much help. 

Ana Paula Mumy: I just so appreciate, um, just your willingness to share. And I'm gonna just add a couple of things that I don't think you did mention is you, I think, have been on a couple of other podcasts too.

Um, cluttering conversations is one, right? And then. I think the Suttering Foundation. So there's more of your story out there. So I just really [00:44:00] recommend that people check that out. Um, and I'm actually taking your course right now. So I'm excited to finish it and learn more. So thank you so much. 

Rutger Wilhelm: Thank you so much.

Ana Paula Mumy: Thank you so much for being here, Rutger. This was really a pleasure. 

Rutger Wilhelm: Thank you so much. 

Kate Grandbois: Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study.

Please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com

thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon.

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