Language Skills in Youth Offenders

[00:00:00] Kate Grandbois: Welcome to SLP nerd cast the number one professional resource for evidence based practice in speech, language pathology. I'm Kate grant wa and I'm Amy 

[00:00:09] Amy Wonkka: Wonka. We are both speech, language pathologists working in the field and co-founders of SLP nerd cast. Each 

[00:00:16] Kate Grandbois: episode of this podcast is a course offered for ashes EU.

Our podcast audio courses are here to help you level up your knowledge and earn those professional development hours that you need. This course. Plus the corresponding short post test is equal to one certificate of attendance to earn CEUs today and take the post test. After this session, follow the link provided in the show notes or head to SLP ncast.com.

[00:00:41] Amy Wonkka: Before we get started one quick, disclaimer, our courses are not meant to replace clinical. We do not endorse products, procedures, or other services mentioned by our guests, unless otherwise 

[00:00:53] Kate Grandbois: specified. We hope you enjoy 

[00:00:55] Announcer: the course. Are you an SLP related [00:01:00] professional? The SLP nerd cast unlimited subscription gives members access to over 100 courses, offered for ashes, EU, and certificates of attendance.

With SLP nerd cast membership, you can earn unlimited EU all year at any time. SLP nerd cast courses are unique evidence based with a focus on information that is useful. When you join SLP nerd cast as a member, you'll have access to the best online platform for continuing education and speech and language pathology.

Join as a member today and save 10% using code nerd caster 10. A link for membership is in the show notes.

[00:01:43] Kate Grandbois: Welcome everyone. We're. So looking forward to today's conversation, this episode is about language skills in youth offenders. We came across this topic from a research article that we read and really enjoyed, titled a systematic review and meta-analysis [00:02:00] of the language skills of youth offenders by chow at all.

And we are lucky enough to have one of the authors Dr. Reed center. Join us today for this discussion. Welcome Dr. Reed center. 

[00:02:10] Reed Senter: Welcome Reed. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here and it's an honor that you invited me. 

[00:02:16] Amy Wonkka: We're, we're so grateful that you joined us. Um, and you are here today to discuss language disorders in youth offenders, which I think is a really important topic.

Um, for speech language pathologists to hear about before we get started. Can you just tell us a little bit about. 

[00:02:32] Reed Senter: Absolutely. Yes, I'm a speech language pathologist. I worked, uh, clinically for, I guess, five years. Um, mostly in school based settings, middle and high schools. Um, after five years I realized I enjoy this work.

I like the kids that I'm working with. Um, but my interests and skills were, uh, more suited for, uh, research in academia. So I went back, uh, to pursue a PhD. Um, that's how I got involved in this article, working with my advisor, Dr. Jason cha. [00:03:00] Um, and then I, uh, got my PhD in may of 2022. I'm now working as an assistant professor at desal university in cider valley, Pennsylvania.

And, um, I'm really enjoying, researching, uh, you know, developmental language disorder and, uh, finding ways for especially school based SLPs to, uh, really make the most of their services. 

[00:03:24] Kate Grandbois: Well, congratulations on your recent graduation. First and foremost, that's a huge accomplishment. Uh, and we are really excited to learn from you today and take some, you know, unpack everything that we found in this article, um, that we will include a reference to in the show notes and encourage everyone to read even after this today's discussion.

So before we get into all the fun stuff, um, I wanna make sure that we have read our learning objectives and our financial and non-financial disclosures. So go ahead and get those out of the way. 

Learning Objectives

[00:03:57] Kate Grandbois: Learning objective. Number one, describe the prevalence [00:04:00] of language disorders and youth offenders learning. Objective number two, describe the relationship between language ability and behavior problems that pave the way for delinquency and learning. Objective number three, describe at least two targeted linguistic and behavioral supports to reduce the risk of incarceration.

, disclosures, read centers, financial disclosures read, received, and honorarium for participation in this course read centers.

Non-financial disclosures read previously served as vice president of governmental and professional affairs for the speech language hearing association of Virginia Kate that's me financial disclosures. I am the owner and founder of grand wa therapy and consulting LLC, and co-founder of SLP nerd cast.

My non-financial disclosures. I'm a member of Asha CIG 12, and serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts advocates for children. I'm also a member of the Berkshire association for behavior analysis and therapy and the association for applied behavior analysis international and the corresponding speech pathology applied behavior analysis, special interest group.

[00:04:59] Amy Wonkka: [00:05:00] Amy that's me. Uh, my financial disclosures are that I'm an employee of a public school system and co-founder of SLP nerd cast. And my non-financial disclosures are that I am a member of Asha, CIG 12, and I serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts advocates, for children. All right. Made it through the disclosure portion of this, of this episode.

So Reed, we found out about your work with Dr. Chow, um, looking at language disorders and youth offenders. Can you talk to us a little bit about why that's a research question your team was exploring? Is there a relationship between language disorders and youth offenders? Because if there is, that seems like something that SLP should be aware of.

[00:05:44] Reed Senter: Absolutely. So, um, just to set the stage for a second, um, rewind back to 2019, um, at the time I was blissfully unaware of the speech language pathologist's role in, uh, um, you know, [00:06:00] Understanding and diverting the, the school to confinement pipeline. Um, I was unaware of the connection between language disorders and youth offenders.

Um, but in 2019, I think it started to become a, uh, bit of a more mainstream, uh, hot topic within our field. I remember, um, Dr. Shamika Stanford, she, uh, published an article in the Asha leader. Um, and that was the first time that I had seen it. I imagine the same is true for, uh, you know, many of your listeners.

Um, she appeared on a podcast, the Asha voices later that year. Um, and then there were, uh, you know, other researchers across the globe, including, uh, One prominent article from Dr. Uh, Pamela Snow. Um, she published that in 2019 as well. Turns out there has been a research about language ability in youth offenders, going back, as far as I think we found them going back as far as 1991.

Um, but it was just very scattered. There was one in 1991, there was one in 1993, um, one in [00:07:00] 1997 and then no more until the two thousands, um, around 2011, things started to pick up. Um, but really we just wanted to take all of these isolated studies, um, you know, a study of. Say maybe 20 youth offenders here, um, maybe 34 youth offenders there.

We wanted to take all of these isolated studies, uh, compile them into a single meta-analysis, um, where we can take all of their data and kind of synthesize it together and come up with, uh, the most comprehensive view yet of the language ability of youth offenders. And what we found, um, is essentially that language disorders are extremely prevalent in that population.

[00:07:43] Kate Grandbois: And 

[00:07:44] Amy Wonkka: we were rereading your article this morning before hopping on this zoom with you. And I think I, I wrote down it's like you found 63%. 

[00:07:53] Reed Senter: Yeah. So, um, 

[00:07:56] Amy Wonkka: really high percent relative. Yeah. To, to what we find in the [00:08:00] general population. Right, right. And that, that 

[00:08:01] Kate Grandbois: was gonna leave me into our, my next question is, can you tell us a little bit about the prevalence of language disorders in youth offenders and how it compares.

To the general population. 

[00:08:14] Reed Senter: Yeah. So when we think of a developmental language disorder, DLD, um, those are children who have language disorders that aren't associated with secondary con uh, condition like autism or intellectual disability. Um, developmental language disorder is prevalent in about, you know, maybe six to 8% of children, um, about one in 13 kids.

Um, so you're thinking, you know, your average classroom of 26 children, maybe two of them will have DLD. They might be diagnosed. They might be undiagnosed. Um, Within the specific subset population of youth offenders. Um, it's not one in 13 it's, uh, like you said, just about 60%. Um, when [00:09:00] we, uh, look at children with, uh, language deficits, um, you know, greater than one standard deviation, about half of them, uh, 50%, um, had, uh, you know, language deficits of more than one standard deviation and an additional 10% of, uh, children had language deficits greater than two standard deviations below the mean, um, so again, more than half of youth offenders presented with, uh, developmental language disorder.

[00:09:31] Kate Grandbois: And to your point about, I'm going to use your words being blissfully unaware. This is something that. I think you're right has come slightly more to the forefront in terms of our responsibilities as professionals, but is nowhere near the actual forefront of what we are learning in graduate school. What we are, what our ethical code directs us towards.

It just doesn't seem to be, I [00:10:00] mean, as, as, as prominent of an issue as it, maybe it should be based on the numbers that you are giving us and how, how much higher that prevalence 

[00:10:11] Reed Senter: is. Yeah, absolutely. If, um, if children with language disorders are that drastically overrepresented within the population of youth offenders, um, then that's something that, you know, we're coming into contact with these children before they even enter that school, the confinement pipeline, um, that's something that we can help with.

We can, uh, um, help divert that pipeline. Um, and you know, should, unfortunately they enter that pipeline. Um, that's something that we, we can help support those children even, um, you know, once and during their, uh, confinements, um, You know, a large part of that is tracking those children with behavior problems and a lot of SLPs, I think, um, kind of push back on behavior.

I remember my first year in the school system, [00:11:00] um, I got a transfer student, uh, who's IEP. Um, they were, uh, eligible for services under the category of emotional and behavioral, uh, disability, E B D. Um, and I thought to myself, what are they doing? Assigning an SL P to a kid with E B D while it turns out 80 per or yeah, 81% of children with, uh, E B D have undiagnosed language disorders.

Um, undiagnosed is many as, uh, 97% of kids with EBD have language disorders, but 81% of those are undiagnosed. So SLPs really need to be at the forefront of that conversation. They need to be there in the room. They need to be working with those children and they need to be, uh, You know, empowering them with the, the language and behavioral skills.

They need to make sure they don't end up in confinement a couple years down the road. I mean, 

[00:11:50] Amy Wonkka: that's just a staggering number 80, I mean, 81% is a, is a huge number. And so one thing it makes me think about, [00:12:00] and we talk a lot about on the show, it's just trying to connect to what can that clinician do with the information they learn in the podcast.

And that makes me think one of the things you can do, particularly if you're a school based SLP is, is get involved in your. Referral teams at your school when kids are coming up and your school based team is talking about these behavioral concerns, be aware of that percentage and advocate for appropriate assessment for these students.

You know, don't, I, I think you make a really great point where you just about, like, we get kind of uncomfortable with behavior and what is the overlap there? And that's not, you know, my role. Um, but obviously it is right for 81% of these undiagnosed students. That's 

[00:12:47] Reed Senter: huge. Absolutely. And I'm probably not making any friends among the school based SLPs out there right now, who are, you know, saying, why are you piling this extra work on me?

I can't handle anymore, uh, children on my caseload. Um, but [00:13:00] absolutely proper screening, proper assessment procedures, um, especially for children, um, with behavioral concerns, EBD diagnoses, um, it's essential. 

[00:13:10] Kate Grandbois: So I can feel myself wanting to go down like four rabbit holes with more questions and comments, because my, what I'm hearing is that this is touching so many aspects of our job and it's all very, it's all critically important.

Um, and before we get into some of those more detailed conversations about the role of the SLP, just to set the stage for our listeners, what else can you tell us about what your research found, um, what the meta analysis revealed? 

[00:13:43] Reed Senter: Absolutely. So, um, just a little background on the meta analysis, um, you know, it's regarded typically is one of the highest levels of research evidence because it takes high quality, you know, randomized control trials, or, um, quasi experimental trials.

It takes [00:14:00] all of those and kind. Puts it in a blender and spits out the best available information. Um, it synthesizes all of the, um, high quality research that we have available our particular meta-analysis. Um, we found 18 studies, uh, that included data from youth offenders, um, under the age of 18. Um, and it also included, you know, quantitative.

Language data on those students, um, that we could compare in some way, whether the study compared them to, um, their typical peers or whether we could use norm reference assessments. Um, we were able to compare data from 18 studies of children, of youth offenders, to their typical peers, um, between those 18 studies.

Um, I believe that represents 3,304 individuals. Um, so there's a lot of data in here. Um, so we included, uh, just the children incarcerated in, uh, juvenile justice settings, not community based settings. [00:15:00] Um, and of course that's another rabbit hole. Um, the United States course rates quite a few children in juvenile justice settings.

Whereas, um, you know, some of the other countries, uh, represented in our review, um, Australia, for one example, um, they use a lot of community based rehabilitation, um, for their youth offenders. So there were fewer children incarcerated there. I 

[00:15:22] Amy Wonkka: literally wrote down a. And texted it to Kate from your article this morning.

And I do just wanna read it here, cuz it connects to the point you just made the United States has more youth in incarceration than any other country. 

[00:15:39] Reed Senter: Oh, yeah, of course. Um, not just by population, but by, uh, per capita as well. Um, total the United States, I believe there are around 60,000 children, uh, that are currently incarcerated.

Um, you know, the rate varies by state. Um, my home state of Pennsylvania, uh, we have 235 children [00:16:00] per 100,000, uh, incarcerated, um, different states range from, I believe Vermont has the lowest, um, 58 children per a hundred thousand are incarcerated. Um, all the way up to the highest, uh, South Dakota incarcerates, almost 500 children per 100,000.

Um, now compare that again to Australia because I have their data readily available. Um, Australia incarcerates 27 children per 100,000. Um, so that's less than half of our lowest state. Um, 

[00:16:33] Kate Grandbois: I, I have so many things to say, but I'm gonna stay focused. Mm-hmm so. What I really appreciated about reading this article was considering the cultural components that are involved in this problem, not only, and, and how that intersects with, with us as professionals.

Um, but it brings me to a question that I was gonna ask later, but I'm gonna ask now because mm-hmm, , it's relevant to what you're saying [00:17:00] out of all of the, out of all of the data analysis that you conducted, did you, since we've already established that this is really important for SLP to be aware of because of the high prevalence of DLD, were there any components of language intervention as part of these settings of incarceration? 

[00:17:21] Reed Senter: So we didn't focus necessarily on studies for intervention. Um, I'm sure that could be a whole nother, uh, systematic review.

Um, but while we were doing our research and, you know, reading through these articles, we did come across, um, you know, several different models for rehabilitation. Um, within the United States, it seems inconsistent. You know, there will be some facilities where, um, you know, youth offenders have plenty of access to.

You know, rehabilitative interventions, um, whether it's, uh, psychologists or social workers, um, speech, language pathologists [00:18:00] working in juvenile justice settings are less common, but they're not completely non-existent. Um, there are some places that contract through their local school, uh, systems. Um, there are some places that contract through, um, I guess, local governmental agencies.

I dunno if that would be, uh, department of health or, um, department of corrections. Um, there are opportunities for, uh, SLPs to provide intervention directly to, uh, youth offenders. Um, and of course, you know, that's just within the incarceration framework. Um, you know, we see in some places, uh, you know, more community based rehabilitation, um, where, you know, children might go to, uh, you know, a, uh, residential facility either just during the daytime, um, in sort of, uh, You know, serve out their sentence, um, in that kind of facility or, uh, you know, it might be residential or it might just be, um, you know, almost like a [00:19:00] school for youth offenders.

Um, these might include some community based, uh, service projects, um, as part of their sentence that might not, um, there are, there are plenty of different models and it varies by state, by, um, locality by country, for sure. Um, but it's, it's not universal. 

[00:19:20] Kate Grandbois: I'm sorry that I derailed you from your original, your original communication of everything in your study.

So please it feel, I would love to hear more about the 

[00:19:30] Reed Senter: meta analysis. Oh, absolutely. Yes. Um, So, yeah. Uh, we, you know, of the studies we found, um, more than half of them, 11 of the 18 studies were conducted in the USA. Um, there were three each from the United Kingdom, three from Australia, one from New Zealand.

Um, and again, we just threw all of those. Uh, we call them effect sizes into, um, you know, a statistical analysis software. That's much more complex than anything I understand. [00:20:00] Um, but that's how we identified, um, you know, first the prevalence of language disorders in youth offenders. Uh, like I mentioned, um, 50, 50 or so percent, uh, with mild to moderate disorders, um, and additional 10% with severe disorders.

Um, and then we were able just to compare the population of youth offenders to, um, you know, like the community sample. Um, and we found that on average, the average youth offenders language ability is about one and a quarter standard deviations below the mean. There were, uh, differences between the countries.

Um, what we found was, uh, you know, especially compared to the United States, uh, United Kingdom had a significantly larger discrepancy, um, between, uh, the youth offenders, um, and the typical population. Um, and, uh, I mean, I guess I attribute that to it requiring a, uh, it likely requires a [00:21:00] higher threshold of offending, um, to get yourself incarcerated as a youth kingdom.

Whereas it, you know, it doesn't take as much to become incarcerated within the United States

[00:21:12] Amy Wonkka: was wondering when I was reading through kind of like the background section of the, of the article, you guys talked a lot about. Kind of the language based demands that are placed on a youth offender, who's been incorporated into the judicial setting. Um, and, and these were things like the Miranda warning or the charter cautions in Canada.

Um, just some of that justice system related vocabulary. I didn't know if you could just talk to our listeners a little bit about those pieces because people might not be aware of the unique linguistic demands of being involved as a youth in our judicial system and kind of what those pieces are. Cuz it was interesting even for youth who [00:22:00] had typical language development, there were some real challenges there in some of those places.

[00:22:06] Reed Senter: Yeah. Really children with, uh, language disorders are at a major disadvantage, um, along every single step of the, the path. And um, you know, like you mentioned, your listeners can, uh, um, You know, read our article for more. Um, Dr. Pam snow also had a, uh, a great review back in 2019, um, called speech language pathology and the youth offender, epidemiological overview and roadmap.

Um, and that provides, you know, again, just a really great roadmap of how at every single step of this journey, um, children are at a disadvantage. Um, so if we think of that school to confinement pipeline, um, we know that language influences a lot language, um, influences academic success like reading, um, rioting, math, um, it comes into play for all of those.

So children with language disorders are [00:23:00] at an academic disadvantage, um, language also, uh, factors into behavior, um, because children with poor language will have a poor, uh, student to teacher interactions, um, will typically have poor social skills, poor engagement. Um, and when we see, uh, language influencing both academics and behavior in that way, um, when academics and behavior.

Kind of, uh, interact. That's what sets the student on their entire lifelong path to success on their achievement, their social success, their life outcomes, um, their propensity for incarceration. So children with language and behavior disorders, um, you know, from the very beginning, they will have poor social interactions, poor academic outcomes, which leads to higher rates of disciplinary referrals, higher rates of suspensions.

Um, maybe they don't do as well in their class. Um, and they're more likely to drop out, which is another risk factor for [00:24:00] delinquency. Um, so between all of these, um, you know, referral suspensions, um, dropout risks, um, that leads to a higher risk for delinquency. So language disorders. We can draw that link there.

Um, once they're in that whole delinquency pipeline, um, like you said, um, you know, from the moment they interact with a law enforcement officer, um, you know, perhaps the law enforcement officer is reading them their Miranda rights and, uh, um, you know, there, uh, you know, constitutional rights during arrest.

Um, there are studies out there that demonstrate that children with language disorders, um, typically cannot understand the Miranda, um, warning. Um, we see, I think there was a study of, uh, you know, high school offenders, um, that determined on average, they had maybe like a, a third grade, um, oral comprehension, um, Ability.

And then they [00:25:00] compared that to the, the Miranda warnings. They, they took actual scripts, um, read by law enforcement officers. And those were at like a 12th grade level. Um, so which is wild, 

[00:25:11] Amy Wonkka: like that's wild kind of broadly. That's sort of wild that, that, that, that's what a choice that we make in terms of something that's supposed to be informing people of their rights at, at that high of a level, because we all exist on a bell curve in terms of language skills.

Like, but yeah, that's 

[00:25:30] Reed Senter: wild. Don't even get me started my understanding of the Miranda rights, um, are, you know, There are the specific rights that we are supposed to be read. Um, but there's no legally mandated script. So, uh, that same study that evaluated those Miranda warnings, um, you know, they found that they arranged from like 50 words to, you know, some officers were, uh, spatting off like 500 words worth of warnings.

Um, that's what, like two pages, double spaced. Um, [00:26:00] And we think of things like, uh, you know, we all saw the, the Daniel Shafer, uh, video where, uh, you know, he was killed by police officers. Um, the police officers were spouting off contradictory instructions. They were saying, don't move your hands. And they, then they were saying crawl towards me.

Um, he didn't understand, he put his hands down to crawl towards the law enforcement officer. Um, and when we think of, I'm not saying, you know, Daniel shaver had a, a language disorder necessarily. Um, but if we think of somebody who does have language disorder and then they're hearing contradictory, uh, inconsistent instructions from law enforcement officers, um, they're gonna have a tough time with that 

[00:26:41] Amy Wonkka: and you're in a heightened state of arousal. So like another thing we know about language skills are that for all of us, Ty typical language or not, when we're in that elevated heightened state, our ability to process and respond is, is gonna be decreased 

[00:26:59] Reed Senter: [00:27:00] 100%. Absolutely.

Even moving on past the, you know, that initial interaction with the law enforcement, the, you know, whether it's the Miranda warning or whether it's just following their instructions. Um, children with language disorders are going to have a more difficulty understanding trial procedures. Um, there was a study of, I think, 20 youth offenders.

Um, and most of them couldn't tell the difference between a prosecutor or a defense attorney. Um, they didn't necessarily, uh, all understand the word testimony. Um, so they don't understand how they're supposed to defend themselves. Um, once they're in the testimony, a child with language disorder, um, is going to have a more difficult time articulating their.

I'm telling a consistent story and, you know, the defense attorney or the, sorry, you know, the prosecutor is gonna jump all over them for any inconsistencies in their story. Um, I can see that leading to a, uh, more likely chance, uh, for [00:28:00] conviction. Um, I think that's part of how more children with language disorders end up in at a school to confinement pipeline.

And then once they're in there, they have fewer, um, opportunities to rehabilitate because literacy is an important of rehabilitation. Restorative justice, uh, conferencing is, um, hopefully trending upwards. And that scenario where, uh, children's language disorders might struggle 

[00:28:25] Kate Grandbois: for our listeners who maybe haven't read this article.

Can you define or tell us more about restorative justice and what that. 

[00:28:34] Reed Senter: So restorative justice conferencing is a, uh, growing movement. I think you see it in, uh, you know, some judicial settings and, uh, increasingly I think you're finding it in some schools as well, um, where, uh, the youth offender is, um, essentially encouraged to, uh, um, you know, just have a conversation with the, the victims, the people that they heard.

Um, and of course, you know, [00:29:00] this is likely dependent of the, the victim's willingness to engage in the process as well. Um, but by, you know, having that open conversation and, uh, you know, discussing, you know, Hey, here's an apology. Here's what I did. Um, Here are steps that I'm going to take in the future to fix it.

Um, and then just being able to listen to the, you know, the victim, tell their side of the story as well. Um, you know, there are plenty of studies out there that show that this is, um, when done correctly and I'm sure you all have stories of, uh, times and places where it's not done correctly. Um, but when done correctly, this can be a, uh, a healthy and restorative process that reduces the risk of recidivism.

Um, but of course, again, it's moderated by language ability. You can't have that great conversation if you're, um, you know, both emotionally charged and, uh, you know, struggle with communication, struggle with language and, uh, you know, [00:30:00] expressing yourself, telling your story. Uh, that's just a door that's not as wide open for you as it might be for, uh, typical peers.

[00:30:08] Kate Grandbois: One of the things that struck me. When I read your article was how many barriers there are for youth with language disorders through this entire process. And I, it was very overwhelming to think. I mean, I think globally, we think, okay, there's a higher prevalence. I can see how these, how that's related or how that unfolds.

But then when you get into the statistics of vocabulary barriers, I mean, it was, it's just the pipeline as you call it is long and arduous. I mean, just so many steps in the process. Everything from Miranda rights, I mean, starting in the classroom with negative teacher interactions all the way through first officer contact all the way through vocabulary.

Um, and self-advocacy [00:31:00] through a trial. I mean, it's a, it's a very, and, and I say this back, I say this as a reflective statement, because for those listeners who are. Here with us. And haven't read this article. It is a very complex, large problem, much when you get into the numbers, it is much bigger than most of us who are even vaguely aware of this issue.

It's much larger than we actually think. Do you think that that's a fair statement? 

[00:31:27] Reed Senter: I think so. Um, I might be biased by my own personal, you know, investment in this. Um, but to me it just seems really bleak. Um, we can see models from other countries, um, where there are alternatives. We don't have to lock up this many children.

Um, it's not like, you know, Australia, which incarcerates far fewer children. It's not, we like we see, um, just waves of, uh, youth violence and, uh, criminality. Um, you know, there, it doesn't have to be this way. Um, but it is, and [00:32:00] not to, you know, remove the personal responsibility component from these youth offenders.

But they're children. Um, they're children who, you know, more than half the time they have language disorders. Clearly they have some sort of, uh, behavioral problems if they ended up, uh, incarcerated to begin with. Um, and we, uh, you know, I speak as, uh, you know, an educator, we educators, um, we have evidence based practices for language.

We have evidence based practices for behavior management. Um, so it seems to me that, um, somewhere along the line, whether it's, it's not just LPs, I, you know, I'm not gonna pin all of the responsibility on us, but we as educators and we, as a society are failing these children. I 

[00:32:47] Kate Grandbois: wanna read. This seems like a, a good place for me to read this quote.

This really stood out to me. Um, and it, maybe it's a nice transition into our second and third learning objective, uh, learn second and third learning objectives related [00:33:00] to supports that we can provide. Um, this is on page 1,168 of the article identifying and examining additional risk factors, such as language may allow researchers and practitioners, right?

So us may allow researchers and practitioners to determine which specific types of evidence based interventions, maybe most effective at providing youth with the skills necessary to successfully navigate the justice system and re-entry into society. And then this next sentence really hit me. This short term focus can then lead to the more important goal of ultimately changing the life trajectories of these youth via evidence based interventions that promote engagement in pro-social peer and community networks.

That is a very powerful sentence. Yeah. When you start saying things about changing life trajectories and I, I would love to hear [00:34:00] more about that. 

[00:34:02] Reed Senter: Yeah. These are the stakes they're high stakes. Um, you know, clearly as speech language pathologists, we chose this profession, not for the money we chose this profession because we want to help people.

Um, and part of that is we can help people by communicating, um, Swallowing too. I know they're swallowing peeps out there. Um, but you know, at its core, our field is helping people communicate. Um, that is a basic human right. It's essential. Um, and it ties into so much of what we consider, you know, not just short term success, you know, passing a vocabulary quiz or, um, you know, learning syntactic structures.

Um, but it's a huge factor in lifelong achievement, social success, life outcomes. Um, and if a child gets, uh, incarcerated along the way that is going to derail they're, um, you know, [00:35:00] lifelong path. Um, so I mean, to me, this is, this is one of the highest callings because it's not just, um, you know, and I don't mean to minimize this, but it's not just helping them pass their vocabulary tests.

Um, This, this is their lives. These are lives at stake. Um, you know, of the youth offenders in the, uh, juvenile justice system, uh, I think it's about half of them will go into be repeat offenders. Um, and once you get wrapped up in that, uh, you know, pipeline of repeat offending the game's over for you. So if we, as SLP have the capacity, um, you know, to put, um, you know, put the brakes on this pipeline, I believe that's our obligation.

We need to make sure that we're, um, in the right spaces where we can divert this pipeline, um, in a major part, um, you know, one of those major spaces are the schools. There are plenty of SLPs in the [00:36:00] schools. Um, so we just need to make sure that we're well equipped to, uh, provide the supports we. So how 

do 

[00:36:08] Kate Grandbois: we do that?

I know that's a very big question for a very big problem, but can we talk a little bit about, and I I'm specifically thinking about our third learning objective, the targeted linguistic and behavioral supports, um, you know, and in combination with this quote from the article that I just read in terms of identifying and examining additional risk factors related to this pipeline.

[00:36:37] Reed Senter: Yeah. That's um, that's a great question. And it's an important question, um, because it really gets to the whole, what can we do about this, um, research doesn't exist in isolation? You know, we're doing this so that we can figure out, um, And I think it ties back to, um, you know, in a sense certain behavioral principles, I think as SLPs, you know, obviously we have language in our [00:37:00] name, um, but we need to take a two-pronged approach to intervention.

We need to, um, be mindful of both language and behavior. And before I get started, cuz I can probably hear some of you groaning at home. Um, I'm not suggesting SLPs need to adopt behavior into our scope of practice. Um, nor am I suggesting that we can replace behavior therapists and specialists. Um, rather I think we get the most banging for our buck when we can, uh, um, you know, support behavior by reinforcing their expectations across settings.

Um, we get the most bang for our buck in therapy when we can manage. Children's challenging behaviors. Um, and when we can use our knowledge to compliment other disciplines, um, so from a behavioral, uh, perspective, and I know, um, there's a lot of behavior knowledge here, um, on, on this podcast. So, uh, please pipe in, um, I think a lot of it comes down to knowing your ABCs, your antied, your behaviors and your consequences, um, [00:38:00] starting with your antied, um, you, you know, you might take a, a function based thinking approach for that.

Um, what is setting this child's behavior off? Are they looking for something, are they seeking something? Are they trying to escape something or avoid something unpleasant? Um, are they just doing it for, you know, the pure stimulation? Like, uh, um, you know, if we think of maybe a, an autistic child rocking, you know, it's a behavior, but it's, you know, Purely stemming.

Um, so if we can identify those antied dent behaviors and then the consequences, which aren't, you know, strictly punishment, there's reinforcement, there's punishment, there's positive and negative reinforcement and punishment. Um, and I think it's important that we understand the, the difference between those.

Um, but by taking that behaviorist perspective, um, we can figure out where. Most appropriate point to jump [00:39:00] in would be, do we need to, um, set up an anec and intervention where we can, um, you know, cut the behavior off, um, before it happens. Um, do we need to set up, you know, a better system of consequences, you know, beating this child's fingers with a ruler isn't working.

So, uh, maybe we set up some sort of a positive reinforcement, um, reward system and, you know, say what you want about reward systems, but positive reinforcement, uh, seems to me like it has strongest evidence behind it. Um, so just knowing where we can jump in with behavior, um, not just language, but definitely taking that two-pronged approach in the therapy that we do.

[00:39:38] Kate Grandbois: And I just wanna jump in here of two things. So if you're listening and you're not familiar with these terms, antied behavior consequence. Um, we have an episode called I'm not gonna be able to remember the name off the top of my head, but I think it's behavior management, part one that lays out that exact three term contingency and sort of verbally walks people through what [00:40:00] that is.

Um, and I think the second, the second point that I wanna make is. How important and I, and please correct me if you have, or, or, you know, if you have anything to add, but it seems to me that good collaborative relationships with your behaviorally oriented professional, um, is a critical piece here. And I say behaviorally oriented professional, because depending on your workplace setting, it might be a, B, C, B a, it might be the school psychologist.

It might be, it could be any various, you know, various titles, um, of people who are responsible for positive behavioral support plans or whatever model your workplace setting embraces. Um, and I know personally, just from carrying both licensures, but also from my clinical. And, and my existence in this prof in both professions, that those collaborative relationships between speech pathologists and behaviorally oriented professionals can be very, very strained, [00:41:00] um, for a variety of reasons related to overlapping scopes of practice related to, you know, feelings of encroachment, the list goes on and on.

And that's not what, that's not what we're here to talk about, but my point is, That, when you think of it through the lens of how important this is and to use your words, um, when there are lives on the line, when you have the opportunity, and again, I'm gonna quote your article here to, um, change the life trajectory of youth at risk.

Then it is absolutely worth your time and effort to find a way to navigate that collaborative relationship, have an open conversation with them about how important this is, share this article, you know, try and find a way to move through whatever discomfort you're experiencing or whatever, as Amy. And I always say, whatever emotional food poisoning you have, or whatever, grumpy feelings you're bringing to the table about that behaviorally oriented professional, and really try and consider what [00:42:00] interventions could be better implemented with both brains at the table.

And that's the end of my soapbox. I just wanted to sort of piggyback onto that a bit. How important I assume that collaborative relationship is. 

[00:42:12] Reed Senter: No 100% and I will, uh, I will second that soapbox. I think that's very important. Um, shameless self-promotion here. Um, there are resources out there for SLPs that are looking to develop their, uh, you know, own behavioral management practices.

Um, I co-authored and article with my advisor again, um, about, you know, some of those very, uh, low investment, um, you know, evidence based interventions for behavior, um, whether it's, uh, visual activity schedules or behavior specific praise, um, you can find that on my website, I'm sure it'll be linked somewhere.

Um, so there are these evidence based interventions that SLTs can implement independently that will help them manage behavior in their settings. Um, but from all of my research, from all of my understanding, the best behavior [00:43:00] management system, Is the one that the student's already receiving. Um, if the, you know, if you're working with a student who has a behavior specialist, um, or a behavior plan, that's implemented by a special education teacher, um, make sure you take the time to learn that plan and, uh, you know, be there for those meetings because, you know, behavior overlaps with our, our scope of practice, you know, especially because of that whole, uh, language to behavior association.

Um, but make sure you learn what everybody else is doing to, uh, support behavior. Um, in that way you can, you know, continue yeah. To manage that behavior plan, um, across all settings, not just the classroom, but in your speech therapy setting too. Um, and that will be more successful than anything the SLP tries to implement independently.

[00:43:52] Amy Wonkka: And I think, I mean, just to think more about the interdisciplinary collaboration, it does keep [00:44:00] also bringing me back to educating other providers in your institution about this connection between behavior. And language. Um, and so, you know, if you're in a school, just being aware of what that referral process looks like, making some connections with whether it's behavior specialists or special educators or whomever is sort of driving the Boston terms of behavior management and behavioral supports for students in classrooms.

Um, you know, maybe, maybe just reach out in a friendly way and, you know, let people know that you're a resource. And I think, you know, Reid, you made the point the last time I brought this up just about the reality that, you know, there aren't enough LPs and we're all like drowning under these scary caseloads.

Um, you know, and that's sort of a separate soap box that I get on about advocating to make sure that your employer adequately staffs your position. Um, but yeah, just thinking about, you know, extending it obviously through the therapeutic piece and implementing the [00:45:00] behavior plans consistently, but also making sure that.

These kids are even on your radar because mm-hmm, some of the figures we talked about earlier today indicate that there probably aren't awful large. There's probably an awfully large number of those students who, who we don't even 

[00:45:16] Kate Grandbois: know about. 

[00:45:17] Reed Senter: Yeah. And delinquency aside, um, we need to be mindful of that language and behavior association.

Um, I think it's, if you, uh, you know, if you find a kid in kindergarten who has, uh, um, some sort of language delay or disorder, um, they are twice as likely as they're typically developing peers to develop, um, challenging behaviors, um, you know, within the next couple of years. Um, and we see that, uh, not just in, you know, those externalizing behaviors, um, those are the ones that we.

You know, based on the name, we can see them externally when a kid's throwing a pencil. Um, you know, that's an externalizing behavior. We can see that when a [00:46:00] kid's, uh, bullying a kid or some, uh, calling somebody names, um, or, um, you know, just hopping out of their seat, those are externalizing behaviors. Um, you know, we see those manifest, um, but also internalizing behaviors.

And I don't know, uh, you know, again, I was blissfully unaware of this, um, but I don't know how many SLPs are aware of, you know, the propensity for, uh, internalizing behaviors in children with language disorders. We think of that as anxiety, depression, um, you know, other clinical things like that. Phobias children with language disorders are, um, You know, again, twice as likely to experience, um, both externalizing and internalizing behaviors, uh, over the course of their lifetimes.

Um, so these children that we're working with, you know, um, as a school based SLP, you know, language was a huge part of my caseload. These children are very, very likely to present with some sort of challenging behaviors, whether it's something we can see or something that we can [00:47:00] see. So it is vitally important that we, you know, we take advantage of the resources at our, uh, disposal, whether it's evidence based practices or whether it's, um, you know, Collaboration with our colleagues who might be better versed in, uh, um, you know, the practices than we are, or even just the colleagues that are better versed in the students that we are.

Um, you know, I see, you know, say Johnny, I see him once, maybe twice a week for 30 minutes and his teachers, um, spend hours a day, maybe, um, with him, um, they know the student well, so they are a resource, um, for, you know, what's going on in their lives and how we might be able to manage it, to get the most out of our limited time with this child.

I so 

[00:47:45] Kate Grandbois: appreciate the, the point that our students with language disorders are also at risk for internalizing, uh, I think I was aware of that, but when you said it, it [00:48:00] really resonated with me a lot more. Um, and again, just considering the seriousness with which we need to approach our treatment and our evidence based treatments, that we're not just very rarely are we just treating language.

There are so often so many more, um, related issues or experiences that go along with a language disorder. And if we just treat the language, we're not really treating the whole child, we're not treating the whole system. We're not really engaging in as much person-centered care as our code of ethics and evidence based practice models call us 

[00:48:40] Reed Senter: to do absolutely.

It's all about taking a holistic view. Um, you know, when I'm working with a, a student, um, You know, I'm not thinking, you know, oh gosh, I hope 10 years from now. Um, I really hope he's just mastered his prepositions. I'm thinking 10 years from [00:49:00] now. I'm really hoping that the student, you know, has the, the tools necessary for success, um, in language or speech or fluency or, um, what have you, you know, all of those are components of success.

Um, but by taking a holistic view, we can just make sure that we keep the bigger picture in mind. And I'm not saying that we need to treat everything. I'm not saying we need to be a counselor and a behavior technician and a psychologist. And, uh, um, teacher, I'm not saying that we need to do everything ourselves, but we owe it to our students to be a part of that, um, collaborative network to make sure that, um, You know, we're providing them with the holistic services that they need, but then also that their providers in other settings, um, are also, um, you know, providing them with the services they need.

Because if they're working, say with a, a psychologist or a counselor or somebody, um, who's trying to teach them, um, you know, say self-regulation, but they're using [00:50:00] vocabulary. That's way outside of this student with a language disorder's, um, capacity. Um, you know, they're not gonna have the, um, they're not gonna be set up for success either.

So by being part of that collaborative network, um, we just really need to be ingrained in the whole entire, um, whole holistic process of maximizing the student success. 

[00:50:22] Kate Grandbois: So we've got, I'm just thinking about our third learning objective related to linguistic and behavioral supports. We've gone over some of the behavioral supports, um, antecedent, behavioral consequence, collaborating with behavioral oriented, professional, maximizing a team approach.

Um, I'm not sure if you have other behavioral support suggestions, but I also wanted to know about linguistic supports that you would, that the research shows that you would recommend. 

[00:50:50] Reed Senter: Yeah. Um, and again, before we move on, if you want to, you know, hear more about those behavior, um, specific evidence based practices, there are some that are available on my [00:51:00] website.

Sounds like, uh, you all have had great conversations on your podcast as well. So those resources are there. And please take a couple minutes to, uh, familiarize yourselves with those resources. Um, but in terms of linguistic supports, um, I think that's, that's where SLPs shine. And I don't know that there's a whole lot that I can, uh, you know, tell your listeners that they won't already, uh, you know, know in some sort of level, um, because I'm sure your listeners are at the very peak of, you know, practicing with evidence based practice.

Um, but I do really want to, uh, you know, single out literacy as being a big deal. Um, and again, we haven't yet done a systematic review of, uh, juvenile justice interventions. Um, but some of the articles that, uh, you know, we've come across in our research, um, suggest that literacy is the number one predictor for reducing recidivism.

Um, if a child gets a literacy intervention, perhaps [00:52:00] while they're, uh, incarcerated, um, That will be the one biggest factor in whether they become a repeat offender or not. Um, if they can get that literacy intervention before they offend for that very first time, um, that might help divert the pipeline. Um, so I know, you know, literacy is, uh, it's one of those things that I think more and more LPs are talking about it.

Um, and there are, you know, an increasing number of resources out there for evidence based practices and literacy. Um, and I, I do want to, uh, you know, embrace the science of reading approach. Um, I'll just go ahead and align myself with that, um, pipeline. Um, But in terms of literacy, you know, some schools might have reading specialists, some schools, um, might say, you know, oh, literacy, you know, that's not necessarily the SLP, we'll just have this other person work on it.

Um, but if you're in a school that lets you work on [00:53:00] literacy, um, I know we're already overworked as it is, but if we can work on literacy, that might be one of the biggest factors, um, in diverting the school to confinement pipeline. Um, so keep that in mind, especially when you've got a child who's, uh, you know, um, been placed at risk for behavioral concerns that you think, you know, oh, they're gonna end up as, uh, you know, juvenile delinquent or something like that.

Um, make sure those kids are getting the literacy instruction that they need. 

[00:53:29] Kate Grandbois: I have one quick que I'm sorry to interrupt you, Amy. I have one quick question about that. So what we've learned just through interviewing, you know, on our podcast interviewing other literacy specialists, is that depending on where you are in the country and depending on, on your workplace setting literacy might not be within the scope of practice or within the role of the S L P on the team.

Because it, my impression is that literacy intervention can often be the [00:54:00] role of a reading specialist or a resource specialist, or, uh, you know, various titles, depending on, on where you work. And I'm wonder. If there are LPs listening who don't feel that literacy intervention is within their scope of competence, um, in terms of, you know, intervening within their therapy time, would you recommend having this direct, you know, bringing this issue to light when in a collaborative relationship or having that SLP reach out to the literacy, the person who is in charge of literacy instruction, I also have to assume that early screening and identifying is a huge piece of this.

So maybe the SLPs role is more advocating in case they have a, a hunch that someone needs to be screened. Can you tell me a little bit more about what an SLP can do if they're not in charge of litera in charge of literacy, or if they don't have it in their scope of competence? 

[00:54:55] Reed Senter: Yeah, I definitely think those are two very real, very major issues.

[00:55:00] Um, for an unrelated research project, I was interviewing SLPs across the country. Um, uh, that was about, uh, executive function interventions. Um, and the one thing that I kept hearing, uh, across interviews, um, was that SLPs are getting pushback, um, saying, stay in your lane, um, in different schools. And that was true for executive function interventions.

Um, but they also mentioned that, you know, oh, it's kind of like with literacy too, stay in your lane. Um, so yes, I'm sure there are highly qualified SLPs out there. Um, who could do wonders for literacy that are being told, stay in your lane? Um, if that's the issue, I highly encourage those SLPs. Um, you don't necessarily need.

Teach literacy in your sessions, but work with the people that are working on literacy with these students, um, and make sure they know what they're doing, make sure they're embracing the signs of reading, make sure they're teaching, um, both decoding, um, comprehension, [00:56:00] um, all of that, um, stay away from that whole like, oh, what's the first letter.

Can we guess? Can we look at these pictures and uh, um, you know, make a guess what this word is. We want to teach, you know, real skills, decoding and comprehension. Um, so. There are plenty of ways you can embed literacy in your therapy. Um, you can say, oh, I'm working such and such skill and we just happen to be doing it through a book.

Um, and then again, it just comes back to that collaborative relationship. If you have a relationship with the reading specialists where you can, you know, support evidence based literacy practices and, um, you know, bring to their attention, you know, Hey, are you working with Johnny? He has, um, emotional and behavioral disorders.

And I know these kids are at a, um, hugely heightened risk for literacy problems too. Um, you know, whatever it takes to make sure that the child is receiving the services they need. Um, so that's, I think the first issue you brought up, but then the second issue, um, SLP, [00:57:00] who don't necessarily feel like it's within their scope of competency.

Um, and that's, that's a huge problem because. We are a profession where we're encouraged to be, you know, jacks of all trades, um, and arguably masters of none. But there are just so many trades that we can't even be jacks of all of them, much less masters. Um, so if literacy is without, um, or outside of our area of expertise, um, I mean the easiest solution would be, Hey, go educate yourselves.

And I know that's so easy for me to say from the other side of things, like I literally have time in my day devoted to just reading, cutting edge research. Um, that's a luxury that school based SLPs don't have. I know that's, I mean, let's be real. That's a huge reason why I got back in academia. I was, uh, spending my lunch breaks in, uh, the Asha journals.

Um, 

[00:57:59] Kate Grandbois: You guys are the same. [00:58:00] I'm just saying you've met, you've met a match 

[00:58:02] Reed Senter: in each other on top kindred spirits but, uh, um, whatever it is, the easy solution is, you know, well, let's shore up that weakness. Um, that might mean listening to, uh, some of your nerd cast episodes, that address literacy. Um, wouldn't that be cool.

Um, but again, it's just, it's all about making sure that the students get the, the services they need. So if you don't know literacy, if you don't feel confident, if your idea of good reading instruction is well, let's take a look at these pictures and guess what's going on here. Um, and maybe that's what the words say.

Um, I encourage you to refer to someone else. Um, we should not be practicing something that we do not feel professionally competent in. Um, so until we can address that area of competency, um, Please make sure the students are getting the services that they need. Cause again, these are the highest stakes imaginable.

[00:59:00] This is incarceration here 

[00:59:01] Amy Wonkka: and it's, and it's such a good point that first of all, we, we can't reasonably know all the things in our scope of practice, which is gigantic. Um, and a referral is not a bad thing. We don't have to know and do everything it's physically impossible for us to know and do everything.

Um, but what we can do is identify this need and this knowledge, that literacy is such a pivotal skill. Um, for our students who, who either are, or may become youth offenders and engaged in the justice system, um, we can be aware that literacy is really important and we can make sure that these students are connected with the appropriate resources and make those appropriate referrals.

Um, I also did wanna let our listeners know. We had in season three, episode 23, we had Tim DeLuca and Kate Radwell come in and talk to oh, great. Specifically about DLD and dyslexia. And what does it mean for [01:00:00] the SLP? So that might be, that's like a nice intersection, um, of those pieces that for those folks who maybe it's not in your scope of competence, but, or, or you just like to add to your knowledge base on that, that might be, um, was a fun podcast.

Give it a listen. 

[01:00:16] Kate Grandbois: We also had one on, uh, with Jeanette Washington related to dyslexia, um, evaluation and different state regulations. So that's another resource that we can, um, link in the show notes. 

[01:00:29] Amy Wonkka: So one other thing that kind of stuck out to me as I was reading your article, um, was that, you know, the language disability is a huge piece, but it's definitely not the only variable that seems to make a difference in terms of who, what youth find themselves engaged in our criminal justice system. Um, so some of the pieces that really stuck out to me.

These very stark differences, um, across racial and ethnic groups, um, as well as some [01:01:00] real differences across socioeconomic status, specifically the correlation with poverty and likelihood of a language disability, and then also likelihood of being involved in the criminal justice system. So I didn't know if you could talk to us just a little bit and inform our listeners who might not be aware of.

Significant differences. 

[01:01:22] Reed Senter: absolutely. And I'm glad you asked about this because it's just a very vitally important component of this whole puzzle. Um, I want to be clear and make no mistake about it. The school to confinement pipeline is a deeply racist institution. Um, it was conceived in racism. It perpetuates in racism.

Um, it unfairly targets minorities. Racial and ethnic minorities. Um, and as such, it is just one of the grave injustices that plates our society. Um, [01:02:00] The, the school to confinement pipeline, uh, a major component of that is zero tolerance policies instituted in schools. Um, and you might think like, oh zero tolerance, you know, that's fair.

That treats everybody the same way. Um, but we find is that it's not fair that it doesn't treat everybody the same way. Um, zero tolerance policies are most likely to be implemented in a, um, You know, minority school districts, urban school districts, um, you know, school districts where those kids are, the ones that, you know, get locked up.

Um, part of that might be differences between, um, you know, the, the racial and ethnic and cultural backgrounds, um, between the teachers and the students. Um, we know. Black children are more likely to see in school, uh, in school, um, when they have black teachers. Um, I don't know how much of that is, uh, just being able to receive the culturally relevant [01:03:00] instruction that they need.

I don't know how much of that is, um, because the teachers can recognize. Um, or better equipped to recognize, you know, actions and behaviors as, um, cultural rather than, uh, um, you know, problem behaviors. Um, I don't know how much of that is the fact that, um, perhaps white teachers, um, don't necessarily understand, um, you know, dialect the difference between dialect and disorder.

Um, and really when it comes to our meta-analysis. Um, the whole dialect and disorder thing really is the elephant in the room. Um, because when we first started, that was one of the things that we were interested in. We wanted to see, um, how many of the participants in, you know, each study, um, spoke, say, you know, African American vernacular English, um, a, a V E um, as opposed to.

You know, the standard American or general American English. Um, but the, [01:04:00] the studies didn't mention that the studies didn't mention dialect. Um, I'm personally curious because we know. Um, you know, people with different cultural and dialectal, um, differences are overrepresented in speech, language pathology, um, they're overdiagnosed with language disorders.

Um, I was wondering, you know, what kinds of culturally relevant assessment practices, um, are these researchers using in their studies to, uh, ensure that, um, you know, they're correctly distinguishing between children in the pipeline who. You know, dialectal differences in disorders. Um, I couldn't really find anything.

Um, you know, I, I didn't read every single one of the studies. We split them out, you know, between three different readers. Um, But none of the studies I reviewed made any mention of dialect or culturally relevant assessment practices. Um, so many of them relied strictly on [01:05:00] standardized scores, like, uh, um, you know, the self or, uh, the, you know, the whisk language measures, um, Peabody, picture, vocabulary tests.

So many of these, you know, they're staples of our, uh, you know, SLP practice, but. Not necessarily equipped to, uh, discern between dialectical differences, cultural differences, um, and what actually is, um, a real disorder. So that's the elephant in the room. We, we know that black children and other minority children are overrepresented in juvenile justice, confinement settings.

Um, we know that many of those children speak in. Um, you know, different dialects. Uh, we know that our profession, speech language pathology, uh, is over 90% white. Um, so we just, that's one of the mysteries. We, we don't know how much of this is accurate and how much of this is just manifestation of a deeply racist school [01:06:00] confinement pipeline.

[01:06:03] Amy Wonkka: Thank you for sharing all of that. I think. You know, another really important piece is. Being aware of culturally responsive assessment practices in general, and moving away from this overreliance on norm reference assessments because we know, and we're learning more and more about how to be effective in our assessment process.

Um, and hopefully in the future, that will be better represented. The literature to come, it would be great to see, you know, future studies looking at dynamic assessment and maybe incorporating some components of norm reference assessment. If it's appropriate, if it, if the normative sample even just re even reflects the.

Population of students we're testing. Um, but I think that that's, that's hopefully a shift that we'll see more and more in our field, because it is a problem. We don't, we as a population, as we sit here through, you know, three white people talking [01:07:00] about this, but we don't as a field, represent the diversity of the clients who we're serving and we need that's, that's something we need to be very aware 

[01:07:09] Reed Senter: of.

Absolutely.

[01:07:12] Kate Grandbois: And if anyone who is listening would like to learn more about the relationship of linguistic diversity, language, ideology, and racist infrastructures and white supremacy. We did interview a researcher at Chelsea PVE on that exact topic it's in our library and the Ashe CEU for that course, our process for free.

Um, it was a really wonderful conversation and we encourage anyone who's not familiar with Chelsea Pervet and her work to, um, look it up. We will list it in the show notes as.

 So before we wrap up, I'm wondering, are there any other linguistic supports that you would recommend an S L P be aware of in terms of, um, mitigating risk or identifying risk factors? 

[01:07:56] Reed Senter: And again, SLPs should hopefully know, [01:08:00] um, you know, their preferred evidence based practices.

Um, I don't think any of this specifically speaks necessarily to, um, you know, youth offenders or children place that risk for youth offense. Um, but for that population in particular, it's so vitally important to teach functional transferable skills. Um, so if you're working on say vocabulary, for instance, um, Teaching functional vocabulary.

Um, but also teaching it through roots and a fixes, um, that can be transferred to, uh, you know, other contexts and other settings, um, you know, teach things that will matter, teach things that will be important to their lives. Um, I know we're running low on time, so I do want to give, um, a brief shout out. Um, let's see, in, uh, 2019 or no, 2020, um, Dr.

Shamika Stanford, uh, published an [01:09:00] article in an Asha journal school based SLPs role in diverting the school to confinement pipeline for youth, um, with communication disorders. Um, and that article talks a lot about, you know, the overlapping risks between, uh, developmental language disorder and juvenile justice, like, uh, low verbal intelligence learning and reading disabilities, impulsivity, low theory of mind and empathy.

Um, all of those, you know, Concurrent risks. Um, but then it goes on to talk about what SLPs can do. Um, you know, both through the identification, um, assessment goal setting, and then, uh, most importantly, culturally and linguistically relevant intervention. Um, so if any of your listeners are wanting additional information beyond just, you know, behavior language, it's important and that's, you know, what sets the S for delinquency, um, that might be a good article for them to check out as.

[01:09:56] Kate Grandbois: And we will link every, all of the articles that you've mentioned and all [01:10:00] the resources that we've mentioned will be linked in the show notes. Um, they'll also be listed on the web, on our website for anybody, if you are commuting or jogging or folding laundry, and your hands are busy, all of those resources will be there for you to check out later at another time we have so enjoyed this conversation, and I'm so grateful that you were able to, to join us this morning.

Do you have any last words, any parting words of wisdom that you would like to leave our audience with? 

[01:10:31] Reed Senter: What we do is important. Um, whether the child is a youth offender or on the path or, um, you know, or not what we do is important. So we owe it to ourselves and more importantly, we owe it to the children that we serve, um, to do the best we can.

This is important. Um, and it really can make a difference. So, uh, Another important piece of this puzzle is advocacy. And of course I'm a little bit biased because I served as a, [01:11:00] um, you know, the vice P uh, president for governmental affairs, um, for my state association, um, and a large part of that was just trying to drag people into advocacy.

And I think there's this misconception in our field. That advocacy means. You know, showing up on advocacy day, carrying a sign, maybe talking and shaking hands with a couple legislators, which is just deeply and profoundly intimidating. Um, and then going home, um, that can be a part of advocacy, but it's so much more than that.

Um, part of our role is to advocate for ourselves. If we don't feel like we have the knowledge in culturally. Um, relevant assessment and instruction. Um, we need to advocate for, um, ourselves to be able to, you know, pursue continuing education on that topic or, uh, you know, get an in-service or professional development.

If we feel we don't have the resources to do so, we need to, um, advocate for that. If we feel like we need, uh, better instruction or, [01:12:00] um, materials for literacy assessment. Um, we need to advocate for ourselves for that. So advocate for yourselves, um, advocate for your students. Um, and we've talked about this throughout the podcast.

Um, make sure you, uh, explain the impact of language, um, to all of the stakeholders. Um, make sure the students understand, you know, Why am I like this? Why am I getting speech therapy? My speech is fine. Oh, it's my language. Um, explain to them, uh, explain to their educators. Um, if your student is involved in a, um, you know, one of the, um, You know, meetings.

Oh, shoot. What's it called? Student 

[01:12:39] Amy Wonkka: referral, like student referral process, I guess.

[01:12:42] Reed Senter: Yeah. If your student is involved in one of those, um, you know, make sure you explain to the other educators the impact. Um, if they're getting in trouble, if they're about to be expelled for a behavior, um, talk about how their language may have, uh, you know, influenced their behavior there. Um, so, you [01:13:00] know, advocate for your students advocate for yourselves, um, advocate for fair policies.

Um, Policies that will hear out students rather than say a zero tolerance policy that doesn't give the student the opportunity to explain or defend themselves, um, advocate for, you know, a, uh, a fair process where you can hear them out in a way that even with a language disorder, they can make themselves heard, understand, um, and help them advocate for themselves.

And then yes, finally, it's hard. Advocate for legislative policies that support schools and reduce incarceration, research, and vote for candidates that support these policies, um, call your legislators. You can write to them. Um, it's so easy. Um, you know, whenever Asha has one of their, uh, Asha advocacy things, um, you can just type in your name and your email address, and they'll practically auto fill it out themselves, but I really encourage you all to, um, You know, reach out to your legislators personally.

[01:14:00] Um, it's intimidating. And if you don't wanna do it directly, maybe get involved with a state association. Um, it's also working with those state officials. Asha handles a lot of things at national levels and Asha supports, um, state associations, advocacy. Um, but a lot of times it is these state associations, um, that have the best chance to have things matter, um, at the level that it can actually be dealt with.

So, um, Yeah, I know advocacy is scary, but please try your best to get involved. It's it's important and it matters. I also 

[01:14:32] Kate Grandbois: think that based on what you, what I've heard you say, SLPs are in a unique position to be advocates based not only on our roles within school systems, but also because of our unique knowledge.

Related to language disorders and how, and now that anybody who's listening has taken this course, . And how language disorders are related to school to, to this school, to confinement pipeline, particularly.[01:15:00] 

And I'm going to quote again, your article, um, when it comes to ultimately changing quote, ultimately changing the life trajectory of youth via evidence based practice and intervention. So, um, we are in a really unique positions to support that advocacy. 

[01:15:18] Reed Senter: I like what you're saying there, especially about us being in a unique position, um, because yeah, speech, language impairments are what the most common or the second most common, um, eligibility category in the United States.

Um, so if you're building a personal connection, if you're talking to, um, You know, you're a state legislator, for instance, there's a decent chance that they may say like, oh yeah, I have a nephew who, uh, sees a speech therapist or something like that. And that's a connection that you can use. You can be like, oh yeah, tell me more about them, you know, learn about their issues.

Oh yeah. You know, I work with students like that. I also work with these students who are at risks and that's, that's a segue that you can use to, uh, um, [01:16:00] you know, Build that personal connection, which is super important, um, for advocacy purposes, but then also segue it into, you know, whether it's, uh, you know, the youth to confinement pipeline or whatever you're advocating for.

Um, just build that connection and leverage it.

[01:16:15] Kate Grandbois: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This was really, really wonderful, and we really appreciate your time. 

[01:16:22] Reed Senter: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

[01:16:25] Kate Grandbois: Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study.

Please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com[01:17:00] 

thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon.

Image indicates course is offered for .1 ASHA CEUs. SLP Nerdcast is an ASHA Approved Continuing Education Provider.