Introduction to Special Education Law: Questions Answered

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Episode

Kate Grandbois: Hello everyone. Welcome to SLP Nerd Cast. I am without my amazing co-host Amy Wonka today, but I am not alone. I am here to welcome Danielle Green to the podcast. Welcome, Danielle. 

Danielle Greene: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. 

Kate Grandbois: I [00:02:00] love talking with you. We have been chatting in this Zoom room for half an hour before we hit the recording button, so I'm very excited to share your wealth of knowledge with the rest of our audience.

You are here today to discuss special education law and how it relates to speech language pathology. Um, you have, you've done a webinar for us before, which I'll mention in a minute. But before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? 

Danielle Greene: Sure. So again, my name is Danielle Green. I'm a special education lawyer.

Uh, I started, got into my practice, um, you know, as many of our special education lawyers do because of personal experience. Um, and I work with families, uh, and, and their, their children to help them get special education services in the public schools. Um, I do everything from, you know, for, from three year olds all the way up to, uh, students who are returning 22.

Um, I also work with, um, families that are having discipline challenges, [00:03:00] um, in schools. Um, and so the practice really runs the gamut. Um, but again, got started because, you know, my son, um, needed services and I was sitting in that i e p meeting. Actually it was the pre i e p meeting, um, before I even got to the i e P table.

And I literally felt like I was on like candid camera, um, because obviously my son was having challenges and. You know, um, we weren't really, it didn't feel like we were like getting anywhere. Like no one wanted to say it, you know? And so I was like, I went home that night and I was like, something has to give here.

I must not be using the right words. And, um, kind of my practice started from there. 

Kate Grandbois: I've learned so much from you, from working with you over the last year and a half. And every time I talk to you, I walk away with so many nuggets of wisdom and I'm really, really excited to share it with everybody. And I wanna take a quick minute to just talk about some of the work that you have done.

So you did a [00:04:00] webinar with us about special education law about a year ago. It's available on our platform for our members if. If anyone out there hasn't seen it, I highly recommend it. I learned so much from you. I will link a, um, I'll put a link in our show notes and I also wanna give a special shout out to one of our listeners and members, Kate Andress.

So Kate took your webinar and wrote in with all of these questions, how do I apply this? What do I do in this situation? And Kate is, um, a really big reason for why we decided to publish this follow-up episode. So just a quick shout out, A big thanks to Kate Andress for helping us create this episode and draft all of these follow-up questions for you.

Um, again, anyone who's interested, I will link the original webinar in the show notes. Before we launch into some of this information, I'm gonna quickly read our learning objectives and our financial and non-financial disclosures learning objective. Number one, identify at least one of the purposes stated in the Individuals with Disabilities [00:05:00] Education Act or I D E A learning objective Number two, describe the difference between an I E P and a 5 0 4.

Learning. Objective number three, list at least two legal considerations for recommendations of service, delivery and learning. Objective number four, list two strategies for advocating within a school setting when administration is not supporting compliance with an I E P disclosures. Danielle's Financial Disclosures.

Danielle is the owner of Exceptional Children's Special Education Advocacy, L L C, 

danielle's Non-Financial Disclosures.

Danielle is a member of the Massachusetts Bar Association Council of Parents, attorneys and Advocates, or C O P A A and the Special Needs Advocacy Network, Inc. Kate, that's me. Financial Disclosures. I'm the owner and founder of Grand Wa Therapy and Consulting L L C and Co-founder of S L P Nerd Cast.

My non-financial disclosures, I'm a member of Ashes SIG 12, and I serve on the A A C Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. I'm also a member of the [00:06:00] Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysis and Therapy. Okay. So we have some interview questions for you about mm-hmm. What happens when things don't go well?

Right. But before we get into that, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about I d E A, maybe some fundamental components of the law in and of 

Danielle Greene: itself. Yeah, of course. And before I do that, I just wanna give, um, my little legal disclosure that all the information that's being presented is for information purposes only.

I am, you know, neither providing legal services or our conversation is not, um, creating a attorney-client relationship. Um, if you have personal questions or concerns, always consult with your own lawyer. Um, okay. So now that all that is out of the way, um, we can, that 

Kate Grandbois: seems like a very 

Danielle Greene: important disclosure.

Yeah, it's a very like lawyerly, you know, disclosure. Anyone that's, uh, it fits though. It fits. It does. It totally fits. It fits. Yep. Okay. [00:07:00] Carry on. Okay, so, um, so relevant laws for our discussion. So there's federal laws and state laws. Um, the federal law is the Individuals with Disabilities Act, I D E A.

There's a statute that you'll find at 20 u s c section 1400. Um, and then regulations which generally provide just a little bit more detail than the statute is 34 C f r part 300. Um, I mean, in reality, what you're gonna be doing is searching like child find special education law, but just to give you, you know, more relevant, um, the actual numbers and, and things like that.

The other, um, law that we're gonna be discussing is the federal law Section 5 0 4 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Um, and that is kind of where Section 5 0 4 plans come from. That's 29 U S C section 7 94. Again, most [00:08:00] people just say 5 0 4 section 5 0 4, um, the Americans with Disabilities Act, things like that.

So, um, where in Massachusetts, uh, so Massachusetts has its own, um, set of, of laws around special education. They can be a little bit different than the federal laws. So it's always really important for you to know kind of where you are in your jurisdiction, um, and what the, what the differences could be.

Like, for example, the federal law timelines allow for 60 days, um, 60 calendar days for an evaluation to take place in Massachusetts. Um, our law says 30 school working days, um, from the date of receiving consent. So again, it's just important to know, um, your state law as well. So from my perspective, um, there's five key sections of I D E A.

Um, the first section is the [00:09:00] findings section and the purpose section. Um, the next is dis is definitions, state responsibility, evaluations, and i e p, and then procedures and due process. So just to kind of frame the, the federal law, um, I think it's important to understand that the findings from the congressional testimony for when I D A I D E A was founded, talk about how important it is to ensure equality of opportunity, full participation in independent living, economic self-sufficiency for individuals with disabilities.

They also talked about how it was important to have high expectations for our children, right? And to ensure their access to the general education curriculum. Right? I mean, there's tons of case law, um, for how I d a came about where basically if a student had a disability, they were basically told to go home, right?

They were [00:10:00] not educated way back, you know, in the day. Um, and the, the, the findings from congressional testimony basically, you know, address that to say, no, these are, these are students that we just need to figure out how to help them, right? Like, how do you make their puzzle piece fit so that they can, they too can sit in the class and, you know, become whatever they wanna become.

Um, so I just think it's a really important framework for how this needs to start. 

Kate Grandbois: I just wanna, I don't wanna interrupt you cuz I know you have more to teach us. I just wanna comment that. So much of that is news is news to me. Right. I mean, we think as clinicians working in a school or as municipal employees, you know, we are often the component, there are components of that law that are really highlighted mostly.

Yes. Access to the curriculum. Yes. Needs based access to the curriculum. But I haven't heard a lot about economic independence. Yes. I haven't heard a lot about, what was the one that you said right before Economic independence? There was another 

Danielle Greene: one. Um, independent living. 

Kate Grandbois: Independent living. This [00:11:00] is another one that I, I don't hear emphasized a lot within an educational setting, so I really appreciate you sort of giving us a scope of the breadth of, of what this this law is.

Danielle Greene: It's broader than, than just, and I don't mean just in like, in a way of minimizing it, but it is the, the purpose of the law, which is what we're gonna talk about next, which is one of my favorite sections of the law is just so much broader Right. Than, you know, can, um, Can Danielle sit next to her peer and listen to a math lesson, right?

Like, it's just so much broader than that. Um, and I, I realize that I'm really, that was very simplistic. Um, so in terms of the purposes of I D E A, and of course no one's reading these things, right? Like it's just the nerdy lawyer, um, that is interested in it, right? But that's why you're here telling 

Kate Grandbois: us Cause we're not gonna read it.

No one's 

Danielle Greene: gonna read this though, right? [00:12:00] Um, and so, um, but like, where did it come from and why right? Is, is super important. So one of the purposes of, of special education under I D E A is to ensure that all children with disabilities have a free, appropriate public education fape, right? Everybody working in a public school has heard that, I'm sure, you know, almost e you know, maybe every meeting somebody comes in and says, you know, my child's not getting a fape, you know, whatever, right?

So like, that's obviously in there. However it goes on to say, designed to meet their unique needs and prepare them for further education, employment, and independent living. So again, how Congress and the congressional testimony went as they, you know, they heard testimony and then they took that and turned it into, okay, so this is really the purpose of our statute here, right?

Like one of the important sections, um, one of the important purposes, [00:13:00] um, another purpose is to ensure the rights of children with disabilities and their parents are protected. And that's why parents have these procedural safeguards that, you know, in Massachusetts, um, we give out at every um, i e P meeting and.

People joke about how, you know, they've had so many, they can wallpaper their house with them and things like that. But there's a purpose, there's a reason why, um, you know, we, we give those out. Um, we have to ensure that educators and parents have the necessary tools to improve educational results. That's also one of the purposes of special of I D E A.

And then to assess and ensure the effect effectiveness of efforts to educate children with disabilities. So, very high level, right? But taking a huge step back, like that's what all of you know you are doing, you know, in, in the school system, right? With your, with all of your colleagues. Um, and so again, I just feel like those [00:14:00] things are so important to highlight.

Um, and frankly, I. When I'm looking at an i e p when I'm talking to, to parents, I'm, I wanna know, does this i e p help them? Either further education, uh, employment or independent living. Right? I mean, that's, that's the bigger picture of this down the line. Um, so I used 

Kate Grandbois: to have it as a sticker. I'm sorry that I interrupted you.

I love coming back to the bigger picture. Yeah. Uh, again, because I think working in a school system, so many of us, we get very focused on our one job. Right? Right. So as a speech pathologist, my one job, we have many hats, but yes, for the purposes of the I e p, your, your, you know, your job, your quote unquote role is to provide services, to be in compliance with the I E P.

And that might mean direct speech services. It might mean training, it might mean indirect service depending on what the I E P looks like. Right. Um, but I, I love just the idea or [00:15:00] reminder that their parents are a part of this team, that this law is overarching, um, that there are safeguards for all members of the team.

Yeah. And that might Right. But you 

Danielle Greene: need to be trained as well too. Right. As new things come out. Right. So how do you maybe get your administrators if you need to, right. Um, to help you bring somebody in to do training. Right. Or allow you to do training for the paras, right. That are working with these students real time every day.

Yes. Right? Yes. Like, could you use the purpose of I d E A, one of the purposes of I D E A to help that argument, to say, you know, listen, like we're, we're all part of this bigger, you know, wheel, right? Like we each do our individual cog kind of section. Right. Right. But like this, there's, there's a bigger, there's a, there's a bigger, um, there's a bigger reason behind all of this.

Yes. Right? Yes. 

Kate Grandbois: Um, [00:16:00] and I, I love just to sort of, Pin it back to something you said earlier. I think, and we're gonna get into this later, but I think many of us work in settings where we don't have an attorney at our fingertips. We don't have someone who has a deep understanding of the law. And often we are told by our administrators who are not lawyers, right?

Danielle Greene: Yeah. 

Kate Grandbois: We are told things that are maybe half-truths or we are told things that are myopic compared to the larger picture. Yes. Um, so keep zooming out for us. Keep going cuz I, I think that this is really, it's a wonderful to set the stage before we sort of get into the minutiae of what to do. Yeah. The details when, when these things don't 

Danielle Greene: go well.

Right. So another great section and the next section that I think is really important for people to understand is, is truly the definition section, again, not a sexy section right. Of the law. Right. Like, not something that people are like gonna dive into, but it has so many importance. Um, You know, definitions that we work with every day, right?

So one of them is a [00:17:00] child with a disability, right? There's an actual definition for what that means, and there's a list of things. It means a child with an intellectual disability, hearing impairments, speech and language impairments, visual impairments, serious emotional disturbances, orthopedic impairments, autism, traumatic brain injury, or other health impairments, um, and specific learning disabilities.

And who by reason thereof because of their disability, they, they need special education and related services. So what's important to understand and uh, sometimes more important maybe for families to understand is that the mere fact that your child has a disability does not necessarily qualify them. For special education services or related services under, uh, the special education laws I I D E A or your state law.

Right. It's, there's a [00:18:00] combination that you have to kind of keep in mind. So you, you have a disability and because of that disability, you require specialized instruction. You require a speech and language pathologist to help you with articulation, social pragmatics, um, you know, any other of the social pieces, um, or comprehension, you know, all the, all the amazing things that, that you, you guys do.

Um, but it's a, it's, it's not, it's not just, again, not saying just as, um, a simplistic, um, or, um, or anything like that, but it's, you have to, you have to marry the two pieces. Um, Again, the definition of free, appropriate, appropriate public education, or a FAPE means special education related services that have been provided at public ex expense, under public supervision and direction and without charge.

It meets the [00:19:00] standards of the state education agency. It includes appropriate preschool, elementary, and secondary school education in the state, and then they're provided in conformity with an individualized educational program. Um, so that's, that's, you know, just the, the standard definition of, uh, a FAPE as it's called.

Um, another definition that I think is important is called related services, and that's also where speech and language pathologists are included specifically in the definition. Um, it says transportation and such developmental, corrective, or other supportive services. Including speech and language pathology, audiology services, um, interpreting services, psych, psychological services, physical and occupational therapy services from the nurse, um, services that are designed to enable a [00:20:00] child with a disability to receive a free, appropriate public education as described in the individualized education program of the child.

Um, so again, we're kind of tying definitions, you know, back together, um, for how can you, how do maybe speech and language pathologists provide services that are designed to enable the child to access their education? 

Kate Grandbois: And I think a lot of times, at least in my professional experience, Those definitions can get sliced and diced a little bit.

Like, so, you know, and the semantics really, really matter. Yeah. So going back to the way that the law is written, I think for those of us who are arguing with our administrators, or for those of us who are put in difficult positions or maybe don't quite understand why it's contentious, going back to what the law says, I would assume is a very powerful thing.

Because again, if you've [00:21:00] been told a half truth or something, that's a little right myopic compared to the grand scheme of things, that can be a very powerful 

Danielle Greene: tool. I think it can be. And I think that, right, it's, it's the black and white. It's kind of like what I say for, for you guys from a speech and language perspective is use your data, right?

Like in a lot of ways, the black and white of the law is your data, right? And it can be as easy as saying, So this, I, I just happened to see this, or I looked it up, or I saw this on, on a Facebook group or whatnot, and it was posted. And so I was just curious, can you help me understand what that means?

Because to me, that makes it sound like I should be doing X, Y, and Z. Right? And I maybe the, the help, can you help me understand is a great way, I think of kind of benching your ego at the door, um, and hopefully helping somebody else do the same thing, [00:22:00] um, while opening lines of communication, right? I feel like in these situations I'm constantly looking for ways where that's a possibility because I think that's where a lot of good work can get done, or that's when a lot of good work can, can get done.

And so I feel like I'm constantly looking for phrases and ways that are, um, that can diffuse things. Yet still prove the point. 

Kate Grandbois: I love that you said that checking your ego at the door is one of the, my favorite expressions. I feel like we need to now do a whole podcast on conflict resolution. Right. It's conflict management because it's so important.

It is. And of course we're talking about this in the context of a contentious I e P meeting or when something has not gone well and there are big feelings in the room and there are people who have, you know, are bringing very different strong beliefs and feelings to the table. So I think that that's such a wonderful suggestion.

I'm so glad you said that. And 

Danielle Greene: I think, I mean, [00:23:00] listen, I guess I would say too that in some cases maybe the meeting's not, doesn't even start out feeling contentious. Right? I think but I, I think in any way I. When I'm going into these meetings, um, and I'm thinking about like, there's a child that I'm, I'm trying to see how can I help them a little bit more.

And so if you're a parent, that's, that's always gonna weigh a little heavier on your heart, right? So it's just gonna, it's just gonna make it a little bit more like the ante is up a little bit, right? And so, even if it's maybe not contentious, there's still this like feeling of, but something's not working and I need to figure it out.

Right? And so, again, I, I and I, I, I mean, listen, I wish that phrase or phrases like it, or written on every wall in every meeting room across the, you know, across the world, right? Because it's, it, it, it [00:24:00] gets a lot of us in trouble. And I think it's also important for everyone to understand that we, everyone play is playing a role and they have a role at that table.

Right. The administrators have a role at that table, right? They're not just i e p members, not only i e p members, um, per the law because there has to be an administrator there or someone that's there, um, to be able to commit resources for the district as a team member, right? But parents are there, they're required members of the I E P team, a general ed teacher is a required member, a special ed teacher, someone who's providing services.

These are all required members of the I E P team. And we all have egos and we all have a reason for what we are trying to be there for, right? And I, I, I, I do talk to my families about that, to kind of help everybody just realize, right? And like, this is, [00:25:00] this is, this is our data that we're looking to use in order to show, you know, Danielle needs some additional assistance here.

Because it, what what we're doing isn't, isn't working and it's through no fault of anyone. It's just not, it's not working for her. Mm-hmm. So now what? Right. So, I don't know. I felt like I went off on a bit of a tangent, but, um, it was an important 

Kate Grandbois: one. It was a good one. 

Danielle Greene: Keep going. Um, okay. So, um, so back to your point about just knowing kind of what definitions are and maybe having a little bit more information.

So there's in the regulation at, um, 34 c f r, 300.34 related services. There's something, uh, specific to speech and language pathology services. And it, it says it includes identification of children with speech and language impairments, diagnosis and appraisal of specific speech and language impairments, [00:26:00] referral for medical or other professional attention necessary.

For the rehabilitation of speech and language impairments, provision of speech and language services to prevent communicated communication impairments and counseling and guidance of parents, children, and teachers regarding speech and language impairments. That one, which is a really important, no one talks about that.

Holy 

Kate Grandbois: moly. I have a million things to say about that last one. Yeah, I bet. I mean, training of communication partners. Yes. Indirect service delivery. Yes. Training of of families. Yeah. 

Danielle Greene: Training of all in the consult section of the grid. 

Kate Grandbois: Yes. Yes. I, I feel like I wanna ask you a million more questions now, but I'm gonna hold myself until we get to the questions section so that we can, we can finish some 

Danielle Greene: of this.

Yeah. But I feel like that's a really important, a really important piece. Right. Um, so there's other definitions, um, supplementary aids and services, you know, AIDS and services and supports that [00:27:00] provide, that are provided in the regular education classes. Right. So you might be providing services maybe outside of the class, but also thinking about, hey, what could help this student in the class?

Right. Especially communication devices, as you were just saying. Or, you know, other types of, um, accommodations, you know, things like that to help them participate in extracurricular and non-academic settings too. Um, so we we're kind of, the law also allows you and requires you to, to think about those things.

So again, that can be helpful if you're recommending something and someone's pushing back to say, well, do we really need that? Do they really need that? You know, um, if you feel strongly about it and you have your data to support that, then you know, yes they do. And oh, by the way, I happen to see that there's a section that says this is one of the things that we're required to, uh, to think about.

Um, okay, so evaluations is another [00:28:00] area that I feel like, um, you know, warrants discussion. Um, there's all different, um, pieces of the law that talk about this. Um, what's required to be in the notice and description of the procedures? No single procedure. Is the sole criterion for, um, for you to use. So you can do observations, you can do informal, formal, right?

It's not just, oh, we have to use the castle and that's all we can use, or whatever happens to be. Um, you are required to assess the child in all areas of suspected disability. So let's say you're, you're doing, you're, you're doing an assessment and you're like, gosh, I'm hearing some things that maybe I wonder if there's something else going on.

Um, you may be told by your administrators, All you're gonna do is this, right? Or you might feel like, all I have time to do is this [00:29:00] one assessment. Right. Which is real. Right. That's, that's a, that's probably a big part of what's happening too, is that your caseloads are huge. Right. Um, and so, but I just would like to remind that the law does require for a child to be sued in all areas of suspected disability.

So if you feel like, even though parent didn't say on the form, oh, I'm worried about articulation. If you, as the professional help happen to notice that and you wonder if that's holding them back from being able to participate, like their peers, then let's, let's do a subtest or something right. To get more information about that and report, report that out.

Kate Grandbois: I love, I just wanna emphasize again for everybody listening, that assessment does not necessarily mean a standardized test, right? You may be in a district where to prove eligibility, you might, your state might mandate that you use a standardized test. But for clinical purposes, there are so many ways to collect and information [00:30:00] and often standardized tests don't give us the clinical information that we need.

And we have so many courses on assessment on our platform. If anybody wants to learn more about that, I will link those in the show notes as well. 

Danielle Greene: Yeah. Cuz I, and I, and I actually think, I know, you know, again, even from a lawyer perspective, it's like, okay, so what's the standardized testing state? Because a lot of times that is what we're arguing right about in terms of, um, you know, the student is not doing well in class, but then they did a standardized test with you and they're all, and they came out all average, right?

And so, but still, something's not. Clicking for them. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's very encouraging when I can, when I sit in meetings and the related service providers, the speech and language patho, pathologists will, will say, you know, one-to-one, the student did pretty well. But I can tell, and I know that, that they would, they are having problems from [00:31:00] an observation that I did or from talking to the teacher or, you know, even in how they interacted with me, that even though they scored in the quote unquote average range, they are still someone that does need some support and services.

And you're doing that based on your clinical experience. Like you're doing that based on your expertise. And that's exactly what we wanna see, what the law requires, you know, you to do. But I realize that we're working in a system as well and that can be challenging. Um, okay. So, um, Let's talk about, um, sometimes I think it's, it's helpful for, for people to understand that there is a section of the law that includes educational records, um, and what that means.

And, and especially for, uh, for related service providers who feel like they're producing a lot of data on a student and, you know, is that [00:32:00] data, information that parents get or not? Obviously. Um, there's specific definitions in, um, the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act or ferpa. Um, and actually the special education law includes, um, the FERPA law in, in its, um, Incorporates it by, by reference in the definition.

Um, but I, I think educational record is records, files, documents and other materials which contain information directly related to the student and are maintained by the educational agency or institution. So I just bring that up as a, um, as a reminder, you know, um, that's important for people to understand.

Um, and 

Kate Grandbois: I, I, I think one big takeaway for me when I hear, when I hear that definition, is paying a little bit of more close attention to my documentation. Mm-hmm. [00:33:00] So, you know, the data sheets that I'm writing on, right? The, the notes that I'm, the progress notes, obviously there are some pieces of documentation that are obviously part of a legal record, but if you are scratching your data on a piece of scrap paper or keeping it in a notebook, By that definition, I could see some circumstances where that becomes part of their educational record.

I have had families request my data sheets 

Danielle Greene: before. That's right. I was gonna say I, it depends on the situation and it depends on what's happening. Um, you know, I've had situations where that information is requested, it's redacted for other, from another, you know, any other student's names that are included on the same page or redacted for that student from a privacy perspective.

But yes, it's, it's just an important piece. And if you have questions about that, you know, I'm sure that your, your school district, um, counsel can also provide, you know, information and, and things like that about, um, [00:34:00] what, how you should keep that records, you know, from, from your, your district's point of view.

So in terms of an, the individual education programs or an i e P, um, there are several, several sections within the law. Of course. We already talked about the, um, one of them, the required team members in an I E P team meeting, the parents, at least one regular education teacher, at least one special education teacher or provider, a school official who can commit resources if you have test results.

A professional required or qualified to interpret the test results the student. If they're between the ages of 14 and 22, but they can also be excused. And if you have any outside agencies that are representing, um, responsible for transition services for the student, then they should also be invited, uh, to the I E P team meeting.

Um, you can be excused from an I E P [00:35:00] team meeting. Parents can excuse you if you're not able to participate. The law does say that, um, the consent has to be in writing. And then, um, if your, if your team, if your content area or related service is modified or discussed, um, then you should provide something in writing beforehand so that that's kind of your contribution as the team member.

And then the team will discuss that during the meeting. Um, there are certain parts of the I E P I know that you all are well, um, acquainted with, uh, writing all the time. Um, but parents and, and student concerns, which is one of, you know, my. Most important, I feel like parts of the I E p, um, student strengths, key evaluation results, of course, the present levels of, um, educational, academic, functional performance.

They're called different things throughout different states. IEPs are also sometimes called different things throughout the states as well. Um, you're writing [00:36:00] measurable annual goals, both academic and functional, um, designed to meet the child's needs that result from the child's disability to enable to them to make progress in the general education curriculum.

Uh, I know we have some questions I believe on, on those things. Um, service delivery is another really important, um, part of the I E P, um, about, you know, when the student will get services, where they will get services and again, services to parents as well as necessary. Um, IEPs are in effect when the district, when the, they, um, sorry.

They must be, once they're put into effect, they have to be made accessible to the special ed, the general ed related service provider, and any other provider who's responsible for their implementation. So hopefully your district or, you know, has a, has a, a program or something where you kind of get, um, the i e p and you know, there's some sort [00:37:00] of, um, tracker or something maybe, uh, so that it, it shows that you reviewed it and, and had that information.

Um, okay. And then section 5 0 4 is the civil rights law that prohibits discrimination against individuals with disabilities. It's ensuring a child has dis that, that has a disability, has equal access to education. It requires that reasonable accommodations and modifications be made for the child with a qualifying disability.

There are a list of qualifying disabilities in the law. Uh, 5 0 4 plans do not require public schools to provide an individualized educational program that meets a child's unique needs and provides the child with educational benefit. So that's, that's a big difference. Not to say that Section 5 0 4 plans are not useful or helpful or, um, appropriate or exactly what a student needs, um, for them, but it's just a, one of the [00:38:00] differences.

Some of the other differences are that 5 0 4 s are technically not required to be written plans. Although, you know, in every district that I've seen that they are, you, you aren't required to provide progress reports like you are for an I e P. Uh, there's no annual team meeting requirement in the law.

There's no requirement for transition planning like there is on, on IEPs. Um, So, uh, but you can still get in, uh, you can still get related services on a 5 0 4. It's just that, those 5 0 4 s generally, although I have seen some, so unfortunately, you know, it, it is kind of district dependent where they will write almost like a service delivery into the 5 0 4.

Um, those are rare that I've, that I've seen anyway, but I, I have seen where that has happened.

Kate Grandbois: Okay. Now that we have the lay of the land, You've given us [00:39:00] such a wonderful overview of the law, which I think so many of us don't truly understand because we're not attorneys, right? Yeah. We're clinicians. We're not supposed to know the law. But knowing all the nooks and crannies, I think gives us a really good picture for the field that we're playing on.

Right. And all of my analogies. Yeah. Um, I wanna lead this conversation with a question that has, that our listener Kate asked, but also it's something that I've experienced. I have multiple colleagues who've experienced it. And the, the question is, what do we do as professionals when our clinical expertise is not in line with what our administrations expect us to do?

And I'll, I'll give you an example. I have heard multiple times that students are, maybe they're given an AAC device, but they're just given an iPad with this one program because it's, quote, what we do here. I've, I've heard that a lot. Or, yeah. [00:40:00] We don't provide direct services on our i e P or indirect services on our I E P because quote, that's not what we do.

Right? Yes. So there's this cookie cutter, um, approach to service delivery, but we as clinicians, we know we may know better, right? We may have a better understanding of how best to help our students, but we are in conflict with our own administrations over, over what we have the resources to do. Right? How would you, what do we do in those situations to be in compliance with the 

Danielle Greene: law?

So I think that, um, one, I think it's important to say what the student needs in the I e P team meeting. I, I do think that sometimes what happens is there's a hesitancy to say all the things that the student needs. Um, but that's the place to do it, right? So when you are suggesting [00:41:00] services to say, this student needs an AAC device, it, it's, it might, the parent might be thinking, right, and you're gonna train me on that, right?

Um, or the teacher might be thinking, you're gonna train me on that, right. Um, the general ed teacher, and, you know, if you don't say it in the meeting, then it, it will likely never be done. So, I mean, that's just like, that's just how I operate a little bit, is like, if it's not said, if it's not written down, then it was never, it was never done.

It wasn't never said, right? So say it in the meeting, make sure it's part of your service delivery. Um, uh, recommendations. Make sure it's part of your recommendations. So you're thinking about the recommendations to the family, um, to the other teachers, right? Your consults, the indirect, um, support that you're gonna provide for the student in the classroom in specials, right, in electives [00:42:00] or whatever it happens to be, um, in lunch, right?

Like all of these areas, you know, have to be thought about, right? So that's the B grid service. The, A grid is the consult to parents, to other staff, and then the direct service is the C grid. So when you're thinking about your recommendations, if you, you, if you think about all of those areas, then um, I.

You're making that as part of the i e P team discussion, right? Which is where it should be done. Maybe provide you a little bit of cover, um, and hopefully parents pick up on the fact that, okay, so these are things that should be in the I E P, right? Um, if you're looking for more information about like where, like what we were just talking about, right?

Like, um, sometimes there's FA FAQs by your state that deal specifically with AAC devices or people have asked questions before to other websites. Like Rights Law is a, is a great, um, it's a very, [00:43:00] uh, dense website. You can search it. There might be information there for you to find some, um, articles on or things like that.

They also have trainings very accessible to non-lawyers. Um, there's a group called a website called Wrights Law, um, where Pete Wright and, uh, who is a lawyer and then, uh, does trainings, um, that are very accessible to non-lawyers with his wife.

Um, and they talk about kind of the marriage for prac, uh, pardon the pun of between, um, advocacy and the law. Um, I think, which can be very helpful. They have a lot of books as well. They have a website, um, that you can search. Uh, I don't spend a ton of time in the Facebook groups because sometimes I find that you're not getting the full facts.

You might not be getting, um, you know, the full set of circumstances and you sometimes really need those in order to help you answer your question. Um, if you're in Massachusetts, the [00:44:00] Special Needs advocacy Network provides trainings, the Federation for Children with special needs. Um, Is another, uh, free, they do a ton of free trainings as well.

They also have, um, uh, a Facebook presence. Um, each state, I believe has some sort of parent clinic, um, that you don't, you know, necessarily have to be a parent Right. To, to sign on to one of the webinars or things like that. Um, so, so those are some just other areas where you can maybe learn some more information to help you advocate for your students, um, and also help you even feel more empowered.

Right. Similar to what we were talking about, of like bring in the definition from the law and just say, you know, this seems like this would relate to me and what I'm doing. Can you like, help me with that? 

Kate Grandbois: I, I, I so appreciate all of these resources and for anyone listening, we will link all of these resources in the show notes.

I think you bring up such a great point that there is a. [00:45:00] A lack of access to good quality information about the law, which is different than legal advice or having a, a relationship with an attorney. Um, the law feels like this big scary thing that's cloaked in mystery that we just hope we're not screwing up somehow.

Right. Um, and I also just wanna mention that you are, you have resources available for clinicians and families as well. Yeah. Um, on your website, some low entry, low barrier to entry in pieces of information and consultation. So we will, not to put you on the spot, but we will list your information in the show notes there as well, cuz I've learned so much from you.

Um, so I wanna move on to some more questions about what we can do when things don't go well. So we've, we've reviewed when we are in the hot seat and our clinical expertise is not aligned with what our administration says we can offer. Mm-hmm. I'm wondering about when the tables are turned. If we have [00:46:00] recommended services, we feel confident that what we've recommended is in line with our clinical expertise, with best practice, with research.

Let's, for the sake of argument, say we have our ducks in a row and we have data, hard data to support what we are recommending. But the parents refuse the I e P services and refuse to sign it, and there's contentions on the end of the family. Right. What are the legal procedures involved there and what are some things that we need to keep in mind as the professionals sitting at this quote unquote hypothetical table?

Danielle Greene: Yeah. Um, again, I, not to continue to say the same thing, but I think what's important is that you, you as the, um, speech and language pathologist for the student are providing and recommending the services that you believe will ensure that they can make progress in the general education classroom slash curriculum.

Right. Again, that can be social emotional, that can be academic. IEPs are [00:47:00] not just for, um, academic reasons. Right? Um, so I think that's the most important thing to kind of keep in mind. And then from a parent's perspective, They have options. So, so they can accept the i e P and the services in full. They can partially reject the I E P or they can reject fully the I e P.

Um, I, you have to tell if you're going to partially reject, you have to be very specific. These are the areas that we're partially rejecting you can reject for omission. So let's say, um, you know, you're, you know, Kate, you're recommending one times 30 in the sea grid for Danielle. And, and I'm like, actually I want, I, I think that that really what she needs is push-in services as well.

You didn't recommend that I'm partially rejecting the omission of the B grid service, [00:48:00] right? Or I'm rejecting the omission of a consult to parents to help learn the AAC device. Right. Or whatever it happens to be. So you can also reject the omission of goals, the omission of services, the omission of, um, accommodations, you know, things like that.

Um, so anything that you do not reject will be accepted and the services will begin immediately, um, is what the law says. Um, then obviously if you partially reject, if there's some services that you reject, those services will not, will not start. Um, if there's a service that was removed or reduced, you can then stay, put that service from the prior accepted service slash 

Kate Grandbois: iep.

That was gonna be my next question about stay put, because that's a phrase that's used a lot that is sort [00:49:00] of, I've heard it used different ways. Yeah, I, I it's, it's a little confusing. Can you talk a little bit about the stay put concept and how it's applied 

Danielle Greene: and it's different? The federal concept is different than the Massachusetts concept, which is even more, um, I think confusing.

Um, so it can apply to individual services to an I E P or to a placement. Um, and you are asserting as the parent, the stay put rights for a specific, you know, service or, um, goal, or cuz you don't think that the goals were achieved right. Then you would stay put for, and those goals would remain.

Unfortunately, what happens is that the goals remain the same. You don't get to update those. So you're basically kind of working off of the same information. Um, but at least [00:50:00] the service is staying with your child during that period. Okay. And then that happens until, until the dispute. Yeah. And then it's until the dispute is, cuz that's basically right.

You're, you're disputing No, the student, no, Danielle doesn't need that service. You know, says the teacher, you know, the parent says yes. So you have a dispute. So until that dispute is, um, is mediated. Um, and there's a couple ways that that could be done. You can have a meeting and you can resolve it. Um, another team meeting and resolve it.

You can go to mediation, um, or you can, you know, file for, for due process. I'm gonna, and federally it has to be through due process. Okay. I'm gonna, 

Kate Grandbois: I wanted to skip ahead. Yeah. A question or two, um, just because it's related to what we're talking about. When there is a disagreement over the proposed service delivery, can a chairperson or team member or administrator change the services on a [00:51:00] grid without the consent of the certified professional?

So, for example, if in your example, the S l P recommends one times 30 in the C grid and there is, you know, some dissent from the family or some rejected, can a non S l p chairperson administrator change it without checking in with the S L P either to like push in or pull out or, you know, some other service delivery model?

Danielle Greene: So what, what I would say is that no, um, that, that should be a team decision. The service delivery that is being suggested should be dis discussed within the team meeting environment because the parent is a member of the I E P team. Um, presumably the speech and language pathologist who made the recommendations, they know the student, right?

They have some sort of understanding of, from a clinical perspective, the expertise perspective plus what the student requires that, you [00:52:00] know, one could argue the administration does not have. Um, and so I think all of those things are really important to, to be taken into account. And so that's, Um, one of the reasons why I say it has to happen, it should be happening in a team meeting, um, not after, because you're denying the parent the right of meaningful participation, which is a procedural safeguard for them.

That being said, I, I'm a hundred percent sure that this happens, um, either in pre-meetings or post meetings, right? And if it's happening post-meeting and we've, we've already had a discussion, um, at the meeting that the student's going to receive two times 30 or, you know, two times 15, whatever it happens to be, then I'm, I'm gonna say administrator, you're not even involved in this.

You weren't even at the meeting. You, you can't make that call. Um, so I, I, and I, but I know a hundred percent that that's, that's happening, [00:53:00] uh, you know, throughout the country. And I'm sure that there's a lot of pressure put on clinicians, um, related service providers. Um, In this process, you know, I mean, I get, I get calls from friends of mine that are teachers that are like, listen, you know, I'm wondering, I, I wanna, I'm doing everything.

I've done everything I can for this, for the student in the general ed classroom, and they're still not getting it. They need more, I suggested a tutor, which is a word that they might use, right. For special education support. Um, and, you know, may, may or may not have been told, well, we don't really wanna 

Kate Grandbois: say that.

Uh, this was, you're leading right into my next question too. Oh, well, there you go. Keep, no, keep going. 

Danielle Greene: Keep going. Yeah. So, you know, the conversation that we had was, How can I, because it's a delicate balance, right? I mean, you still, you have to work still. [00:54:00] Um, right. You have bosses, obviously they have not checked their ego at the door.

They did not listen to the podcast and like got that information. Um, you know, but so what my advice was, one is you have to give all of the data that you have and say all the things that you are doing in the general education classroom and say, and he's still not getting, or it's still not enough, right?

Because you, you have to, you have to, you have to go that far. Right? It, it's in, it's. One, there are compliance requirements, right? Like if you are not able to provide what the student needs and you do not feel they're making progress, then you do have an obligation under child find. Um, which literally means, you know, says means what?

It says find a student with disabilities and, you know, evaluate them to see if they need services, [00:55:00] then that's, that's what you need to do, um, better if you have some data. Um,

but if you feel like you can't go so far as to say they need a special education teacher, um, because of your administrators or your situation. Say that without saying it. Like, we see all those memes, like, you know, tell me you have kids without telling me you have kids, you know, or whatever it is or whatever bad example I'm trying to give.

Right. Like, what are some ways that you can say, like I, I said, I also said like, give some examples. Mm-hmm. Right? Like this was the student's math quiz and this was it before, if you can, this was it before I sat with them. Right. They got one problem done in 45 minutes and it was wrong and they couldn't show their work correctly, couldn't even write it in a way that anybody could read.[00:56:00] 

And this was after I sat with them for two days throughout, you know, um, kind of the free periods during, during, uh, school. 

Kate Grandbois: So showing that customized intervention as the data. Yeah. More of like a, sort of like a dynamic, that's another dynamic, another example assessment. Yeah. Right. Um, so, and this, this was gonna bring me, my question was going to be around this needs versus benefits.

Yeah. Bene needs versus benefits from question. And, um, one of the questions that, um, Kate brought to the table, which I wanna emphasize is how do we answer questions when a family asks us an innocent meaning question, such as, do you have, do you know anywhere, anyone I can send my child to for outside speech services?

Yeah. Or do you have any additional resources for x, y, z deficit? And yeah. The que we are in at times paralyzed by these questions [00:57:00] because, If we answer them, then it looks like there's, do they need services? Services they're supposed to be getting. Um, so how would you recommend we navigate some of this needs versus benefits language when it accidentally arrives on our, on our professional doorstep, doorsteps, so to speak?

Danielle Greene: Yeah, I guess one, I would say it's such a shame that, you know, providers, teachers feel like this. Like, like, you know, you can feel like, um, you're heart racing, you know, like when you get asked this question from a parent because you wanna, you wanna say, you know, these are the services, these, you know, um, but you, you feel put in a, in a, between a rock and a hard place, which I, I can, I can appreciate.

So I guess what I would say is, um, you might have to say, Although the services that we're, we're, we're providing, um, Danielle in [00:58:00] school are, are what she needs in order to access her education in school. I can see how outside of school maybe you would want to, um, get her, you know, more repetition or extra support or maybe look at these areas, right?

So you might have to start by kind of doing a little bit of, especially if you are providing them service, you know, this is something that we are doing and this is why we're doing it. And we're happy to work with that outside provider too, because there's only so many minutes in the school day. And we know, we also wanna make sure that the student is having some time, right.

With their peers in their classroom, you know, or for whatever it happens to be. Um, So I guess I feel like that could be one way, right? Like, you know, call out the fact that, you know, you are providing the services that you think are appropriate in this, in the school setting. Sometimes [00:59:00] there are things that aren't gonna be worked on in the school setting.

Right. Um, I feel like this happens all the time with OTs and PTs as well, and it's, it's really challenging. And I'm sitting on the parent side of the table. I'm sitting on the, um, attorney side of the table. It's really challenging to hear, you know, and somebody say, we're not providing your student services, maybe because they're, they're not failing enough.

Right. Or, or something like that. And the law doesn't require a student to fail. Right. But, and, and really it's, again, you have to bring it back to you. Are they making progress? Um, in the general education curriculum, and there's a lot of ways that progress is measured. In Massachusetts, we also have a concept of effective progress, and there's a definition relating to that.

Um, and there's case law, some case law about that. Um, but it's, it's tricky. It's really tricky. I'm, I'm not [01:00:00] sure that I, I answered that in a helpful way, um, at all, and I can appreciate that. It's, it's, it's, it's a very tricky situation for clinicians. I was 

Kate Grandbois: muted. I'm sure that all of the. Answers are rooted in the specifics of a situation too.

Yes. Especially, you know, depending on whether or not you have the backing of your district. Yes. Depending on how the question is asked, what the skill is, you know, there's a difference between getting additional supports for extra practice for articulation versus Yes. Training for an AAC device. That is the main way through which you get access to a curriculum.

So yes, I think there are, I'm, I'm sure that questions like that are just difficult to answer across the board, depending on the specifics. I am so grateful for your time. I know that we do need to wrap up and I, I just wanna say thank you for spending the time with us for answering some of these questions to anyone who is listening, if you're [01:01:00] anything like me, you probably have more questions because this is such a deep well, um, and an intersection that we don't often talk about in our field.

You know, how we interact with the requirements of our jobs and our workplaces and how we interact with the requirements of the law. Yeah. So we really appreciate your time in, in highlighting some of these things. If anyone does have additional questions, we will put Danielle's website in the show notes, um, as well as all of the additional resources that she mentioned.

So go ahead and take a look, get in touch. Um, there is more help out there for you if you need it. Thank you again so much, Danielle, 

Danielle Greene: for joining us. Oh, thank you so much for having it was, 

Kate Grandbois: it was wonderful.

Thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. 

Danielle Greene: Thanks for having me.

Outro

Kate Grandbois: Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study.

Please check [01:02:00] in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com

thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon.

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