Gender Expansive Voice Care: Working with Non-Binary Clients
This is a transcript from our podcast episode published October 17th, 2022. The podcast episode is offered for .1 ASHA CEU (intermediate level, professional area). This transcript is made available as a course accommodation for and is supplementary to this episode / course. This transcript is not intended to be used in place of the podcast episode with the exception of course accommodation. Please note: This transcript was created by robots. We do our best to proof read but there is always a chance we miss something. Find a typo? Email us anytime.
A special thanks to our Contributing Editor, Caitlin Akier, for reviewing and editing drafts of our transcripts. Her work helps keep our material accessible.
Episode Summary:
Do you have a desire to walk alongside non-binary individuals on their personal journeys? Whether you are a seasoned, voice professional or new to the domain, this episode will inspire and inform as you consider your potential role in this partnership. Voice experts Barb Worth and AC Goldberg return to the airwaves, sharing their strategies to help you maintain culturally responsive practices as you collaborate with non-binary clients seeking voice alignment support. Tune in to clear up confusion on terminology and to gain practical strategies rooted in cooperative goal-setting, creative application of shared narratives, and a professional relationship built on trust and understanding.
Article / Transcript
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[00:01:43] Kate Grandbois: Welcome to SLP Nerd cast everyone. We're so excited for today's episode. We have two amazing individuals who have joined us before. Welcome Barb and AC.
[00:01:57] AC Goldberg: Hi, thanks for having us. [00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Amy Wonkka: We're so excited. So AC and Barb, you are here today to discuss gender expansive voice care with non-binary people. And like Kate said, you've both been on before.
It's so nice to see you again, um, for our listeners who, who maybe haven't listened to any of your podcasts, uh, before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves?
[00:02:20] Barb Worth: So, yeah, so I am been in the profession for almost 30 years and, um, mostly with working with adults, um, medical settings, uh, am a, uh, voice clinician. And then in the last 10 years have really dedicated my time and energy and focus, um, to, uh, working with transgender individuals, a non-binary individuals with regards to voice care, voice modification.
And, um, I feel really passionate about training others. So I actually switched to an academic setting. I work at Emerson college and I am a clinical instructor and also an academic instructor in the area of voice. And I love training the [00:03:00] next generation, um, on this type of work.
[00:03:05] Kate Grandbois: We're so glad to have you back, Barb.
Thanks. All right. AC you go tell us all about you
[00:03:08] AC Goldberg:. Oh my gosh. Um, my name is AC Goldberg. My pronouns are he him and his, um, I am a founder of, um, a cultural, uh, culturally responsive training. Platform, um, called the credits Institute where you can get, um, CEUs in intersectional, cultural responsiveness. I am also the founder of transplaining, which is my consulting agency, where you can bring me to talk to your agency about, um, culturally responsive care with transgender nonconforming individuals and two spirit LGBTQIA plus issues in the workplace in schools, hospital, clinical settings.
Um, and that's where my passion lies is educating others to decrease disparities and, and institutional mistreatment among minoritized populations. I am currently transitioning from a school SLP role, um, to working for [00:04:00] myself consulting full time and also providing gender affirming and gender expansive voice care services to transgender nonconforming and non-binary individuals.
So I'm excited.
[00:04:12] Kate Grandbois: I am so excited. We're all so excited. And to anyone listening who is not familiar with your platform, please definitely go check out transplaining. You have so many wonderful resources on your website, so many great courses, um, and we're really excited and privileged to have you come and share some of your knowledge with us today.
Both of you before we get into the really fun stuff, the powers that be require that I read our learning objectives and disclosures. So I'm gonna go ahead and get through that as quickly as possible so that we can get straight to learning from the both of you. =Learning objective number one, identify at least two steps you can take towards cultural and clinical competency when working with non-binary people.
Learning objective number two, describe at least two components of gender expansive voice and communication without using gendered language. [00:05:00] And learning objective number three, describe at least three potential considerations when working with a non-binary client receiving gender expansive voice and communication services. Disclosures.
AC Goldberg's financial disclosure is AC is the founder of transplaining and the credit Institute and received an honorarium for participating in this course, AC Goldberg's non-financial disclosures AC is a founding member of the trans voice initiative and is a topic expert in gender for the informed SLP.
He is a 2022 ASHA convention planning committee member in health literacy, access, communication, and outcomes. He is also on the community advisory board, overseeing research out of Boston university about the effects of exogenous testosterone therapy on communication and assigned female at birth speakers. AC is on the editorial board of the journal of communication disorders.
Barb Worth's financial disclosures. Barb is a clinical and academic instructor in communication, sciences, and disorders at Emerson college, she instructs students in the delivery of voice [00:06:00] services to all populations. Barb received an honorarium for participating in this course. Barb's uh, Barb's non-financial disclosures.
Barb has a decade of experience working with the transgender and nonconforming populations. Kate's financial disclosures. That's me. I'm the owner and founder of Grandbois therapy and consulting LLC. And co-founder of SLP nerd cast. My non-financial disclosures. I'm a member of ASHA, SIG 12, and serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts advocates for children.
I'm also a member of the Berkshire association for behavior analysis and therapy and the association for behavior analysis international and the corresponding speech pathology and applied behavior analysis, special interest group.
[00:06:38] Amy Wonkka: Amy that's me. My financial disclosures are that I'm an employee of a public school system and co-founder of SLP nerd cast. And my non-financial disclosures are that I'm a member of ASHA special interest group 12, and I serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts advocates for children.
All right. We've made it through all of the disclosures, [00:07:00] um, AC and Barb. How about you start us off by telling us a bit about that first learning objective.
[00:07:08] Barb Worth: I gotta look at it. Okay.
[00:07:12] AC Goldberg: cultural responsiveness was our first learning
[00:07:15] Barb Worth: and cultural responsiveness competency. Well, yeah. Okay. So first of all, you know, we did actually a whole podcast, um, for you all.
So we highly recommend that you listen to that. Um, you know, It's so just, you know, important to do your homework, know your terminology, um, you know, use your resources like transplaining, yay, AC um, you know, Facebook pages, sources, books, organizations, do your homework if you wanna do this type of work. Um, but we are gonna talk about, um, some terminology and I think AC’s gonna take over now, um, because as we move forward with this particular, um, podcast, [00:08:00] I, I think, uh, we need to make sure that we're all on the same page with regards to understanding, um, terminology and also acronyms.
So take it away AC.
[00:08:08] AC Goldberg: Speaking of acronyms, um, and you know, yeah, cultural responsiveness. Obviously we want you to go back and listen to our first podcast, but it doesn't end there. Um, no, you know, cultural, um, you know, I just wanna make sure that we are, um, thorough in our explanation, you know, cultural responsiveness is a, is a commitment and dedication to ongoing learning about the populations that you serve.
Um, so today we're really specifically gonna be delving into things that are related to non-binary identities. Um, and these are things that, um, the terminology changes, um, you know, each client of yours might have their own terminology to describe their gender. Um, and all of that is really important. Um, it's really important that you keep up with terminology because that changes rapidly daily.
Um, it does daily. Yeah, it really does. It changes rapidly and you know, what [00:09:00] was, what was something that. Things like, you know, person first language versus identity, first language. Right? All of that, you know, even though it's individual to the person who is in front of you, um, the, I don't wanna say norm because I don't like that term.
Um, but the, um, the most popular, um, of terms rotate change and new terms come up all the time. Right. And, you know, we wanna make sure that we're telling you all, like, you know, we'll tell you things today. We'll tell you to listen to our previous podcast. I bet things in that previous podcast are already, that have changed.
Right. You know, mm-hmm so, um, this is a real, like do your homework and cultural responsiveness, right? Because you wanna make sure that you're, you're doing the best for the population that you serve. And it's just on, you know, engaging in ongoing learning, reading the articles that come out, listening to podcasts every so often, so that you do have up to date information because, um, you know, far too often in our field, people read something 20 years ago and take that as, you know, the information and they aren't as [00:10:00] engaged as, you know, Keeping up.
So that's just something I wanted to say before I delve into termin.
[00:10:06] Barb Worth: Absolutely. And you know, and I think you already alluded to this and we're gonna talk more about it, but also, you know, talking with your client, um, because what may be the latest and greatest terminology that you're reading about isn't necessarily their terminology.
So sort of getting on the same.
[00:10:23] AC Goldberg: Um, so yeah, exactly. So I'm gonna go and try my best to define these terms, um, which, um, the first of which is gender. Um, so gender is a set of expectations that are placed upon a person based on their sex assigned at birth. So when someone is born, a doctor looks at their external body and says, you know, it's a boy.
And then this whole set of expectations based on one small body part gets placed upon them, you know, and through no fault of the people around them, those are societal expectations. Um, you know, they're steered in certain directions, certain interests, um, certain types of [00:11:00] things that they might wanna wear.
Um, you know, gen roles that they might wanna play, even behavior and communication are impacted by our expectations around gender, um, gender isn't, something that is inherent, um, Or I'm sorry, isn't something that is inherently linked to, um, our sex assigned at birth. Um, everyone can have and feel an inherent gender within themselves.
Um, but you know, society really conflates, um, sex and gender. So those are two completely separate things. And I wanna make sure that we all, you know, like we mentioned that kind of going forward because when we talk about people with non-binary genders, um, which I think I'll define first, um, you know, and then move into transgender, but a non-binary gender is someone who feels that their gender doesn't squarely align with male or female, but a non-binary person can look like anyone, use any [00:12:00] pronouns, um, you know, somebody who's non-binary, um, could look like any one of us in this room. Um, you know, you can't look at someone and say like, well, that person looks really non-binary. You don't know, um, what someone's internal sense of gender is by looking at them or even by knowing their pronouns.
Um, and you know, non-binary identities can be. they're really, you know, it's really very, a beautiful, beautiful and liberatory concept to not be constrained to one set of expectations. Um, but non-binary identities can look like any other identity. Um, so, you know, when you, when you see people and you're like, you know, Hmm.
A lot of people try and box people in, like, is that a, a man, or is that a woman? Um, Some non-binary people will easily be lumped, um, possibly incorrectly by people, um, by people obviously always incorrectly by people walking down the street. Um, but people are kind of always trying to fit us into a construct, um, of, you know, [00:13:00] what is this person, you know, they wanna greet you with a, with a, with a sir or a ma'am or something like that.
People are always trying to box people in. It's almost the first thing that people try and do when they see you is fit you into a category. Um, and non-binary people, you know, they transcend those categories, which is a really beautiful, um, and liberatory way to live, um, your life, um, sort of free of those expectations.
Um, Not all non-binary people consider themselves transgender. So let me define the term transgender and then kind of go back to, um, what I was talking about there, a transgender person is someone who doesn't feel like that their gender aligns with the expectations that were placed upon them, um, when they were assigned a sex at birth and all of the expectations that go with the gender that is associated with that sex.
For instance, I was assigned female at birth or AFAB. Um, and I obviously don't look like someone who you would call female. I never felt like someone who, you know, embodied [00:14:00] that identity and therefore I consider myself transgender. Non-binary people may or may not consider themselves transgender. Non-binary people might not feel like there was ever a, you know, a change that there was ever a, you know, transition.
Um, you know, they might come out as non-binary and not change a single thing about themselves, even their pronouns. Um, you know, so non-binary identities can really look and be like anything. Some non-binary people say that they are transgender. Some non-binary people don't consider themselves transgender and that's something that's individual to each person, and it's also not clinically relevant.
So these are, that's a thing that, you know, when you are, when you're talking to a non-binary client, um, you know, whether or not they consider themselves transgender, doesn't really matter. It only thing that's important is what they want their voice to sound like. Um, so I'm gonna get into gender nonconforming, which is when we get into these.
The acronyms on the next slide. Um, TG and C [00:15:00] is trans and gender nonconforming gender non-conformity, um, means that someone doesn't fit within like one specific gender box in either, you know, persona, look or the way that they just see themself in the world. Um, non-binary people are somewhat by definition, gender nonconforming, um, but.
On the outside, because you can never tell, somebody could appear completely gender conforming, um, and still embody a non-binary identity. Um, so you know, and not all gender non-conforming people consider themselves non-binary or transgender. Um, you know, you might see people within the broader LGBTQ, um, population who are gender nonconforming.
You might also see cisgender people who, you know, you look at and think, well, you know, that person does not stereotypically seem like X. Um, and that is a gender nonconforming person. It comes up for [00:16:00] the me. Go ahead, Kate.
[00:16:01] Kate Grandbois: I have a question. I wanna say this back to you to make sure I've understood. So in terms of this terminology and, and the fluidity of this, someone who identifies as non-binary is in some ways, gender nonconforming, but not everyone who is gender nonconforming is non-binary.
Is that correct? I just wanted to make sure I had that. Please continue.
[00:16:22] AC Goldberg: No, that is correct. Exactly. Thank you for, for making that more clear for the audience too. Um, you know, not even everyone who's gender nonconforming considers themselves gender nonconforming, but society might, um, you know, it's um, and then we get into agender, um, people who are agender don't feel comfortable having a gender assigned to them.
Agender just means a, a lack of, you know, a lack of gender, you know, the absence of gender. Um, so they don't feel comfortable with the construct being applied to them. Even sometimes a non-binary construct being applied to them. Doesn't, like the gender just doesn't fit with [00:17:00] them. Um, you know, it, isn't something that they feel can be applied in any way.
Um, and that's someone who could come to you for, you know, for voice care and you have to understand, okay, this person has the absence of gender. Um, and whether or not they want their voice to have the absence of gender will be highly individual, but that someone who could come to you for this type of voice care, the gender spectrum is, um, this, you know, beautiful array of all different ways that, um, you know, that gender can be and present.
Um, so, you know, if you have a gender, if you're not a gender, you are on the gender spectrum. It's not a continuum. It's not a straight line from like very manly man to like very feminine women. It's, you know, And non-binary is not like someone in the middle. Um, you know, that's not, that's not a thing. Um, it's, you know, if you picture, um, I wish I had a picture.
Um, if you could just picture like a, you know, a beautiful, broad rainbow array of sort of all of the different ways that gender can be expressed and, um, and communicated, um, you [00:18:00] find, you know, where someone falls on the gender spectrum. Gender expression is how someone expresses their gender through, um, you know, through their look, their communication style, um, you know, possibly their pronouns and name depending.
Um, you know, they're all different ways that people express their gender. Um, you know, they can express their gender through clothing, they can express their gender through makeup or the lack thereof. Um, they can express their gender through their voice, their, um, their non-verbal communication. Um, how, how else can people express their gender?
Barb, am I skipping things?
[00:18:36] Barb Worth: I'm trying to think. I think you've covered it. I, I awesome. I can't think of any
[00:18:40] AC Goldberg: You know, gender is just such an interesting thing to realize that you are expressing and to take ownership over, you know, how your gender is expressed into, like, I, I love to do this activity when I'm running workshops is ask people, what are ways in which you express your gender?
Um, you know, because it's [00:19:00] hard for most cisgender people to answer that um, because people, a lot of people haven't taken a deep dive into what gender actually is. So if you're listening and you're a cisgender person, who's never thought about that. Take a minute to reflect. The next two terms on this slide are gender fluid and gender queer, um, gender fluid, um, You know, that's the actual stuff that comes out of your eyes.
That's your gender fluid. I'm joking. um, those are tears. I'm I'm just kidding. no. Um, your tears are not your gender fluid. Um, gender fluid is not an actual thing. It is an identity that many people have. Um, and actually I hope that, that I wasn't attempting to poke fun at it I was trying to, trying to make you laugh.
But gender fluid people are people who don't embody one singular gender all the time. Um, gender fluid people, their gender expression and their gender, um, their gender expression and even their gender identity. May change and evolve. Um, you know, from hour to hour, from day to day from, you [00:20:00] know, from week to week, they might go through periods of ti of years where they feel more, um, like they want to express themselves more in one way than in the other way.
Um, that's one of those identities that, um, it can be very stable within a person. The person says, you know, well, I'm gender fluid, but the public may not experience that as a stable thing because the public sees the person presenting in different ways at different times. And, um, gender fluid people have different voice needs, and we're gonna get into that.
Um, I'm gonna get into that in a little bit, um, more time. Um, but a gender fluid person is just someone who's gender isn't stagnant, um, and you know, most people's genders are pretty stagnant. Um, and when you think about that gender fluidity is just such a beautiful thing. Um, and a gender queer person, um, is somewhat like a gender nonconforming person.
It's just a little bit of a different label. Um, a gender queer person usually embodies one specific gender that is [00:21:00] neither, you know, neither male nor female may not consider themselves non-binary. Um, but also may have, um, voice peer needs that are aligned with that of the community. Um, and the next slide that we have that we're gonna go into are some acronyms.
And I wanna just make sure that, um, everyone knows what the acronyms stand for. Um, so TG&C you'll see that a lot, especially if you're involved in any, um, education with me. Um, it stands for trans and gender nonconforming. Um, those that's just an umbrella. Um, non-binary people fall into that, even though they're not mentioned in, you know, specifically in there, because a lot of non-binary people either consider themselves trans or gender nonconforming.
It's not meant to be an exclusionary acronym. Um, but, um, it would be very hard to get all of the, we have so many letters, um, to get all of those in there and have it still make sense. Um, M to F or [00:22:00] MTF is male to female. You might see that in a chart or somebody might say I'm in, I'm in F to M or I I'm an M to F transgender person.
That just means sort of, I was assigned and assumed one thing. I am now presenting and embodying a different thing. Um, but those are, you know, mostly for those are mostly binary identities, um, not all the time, but those are mostly binary identities. There is some confusion sometimes I know with SLPs, especially, um, using, um, the term FTM, which can oftentimes stand for first time mom.
Um, I have seen SLPs confused by this. Um, you know, when, when they get someone on their caseload, um, sometimes people will come to me for consulting and say, you know, I work in an outpatient center. Um, I, you know, was meeting with someone today and their intake form was about being an F to M and I assumed they meant first time mom, and then I was face to face with a man.
And that was very [00:23:00] confusing. And I, I just, I, I need to have like a debrief about that and I'm happy to talk to anyone that happens to. But, um, you know, that is, um, That's an acronym that can be, you know, that can mean female to male or first time mom. And, you know, it's important that people understand that if you see it written somewhere or if someone describes themselves that way, not to automatically assume first time mom, and maybe to assume female to male, depending on the context.
Um, that's a hard one. Um, Barb
[00:23:26] Barb Worth: and I see, yeah, I, I'm wondering about, um, um, M to F and F to M um, my understanding too, is that they're, those terms are cut, becoming a little bit more out of favor. They are. Um, and I think that we're using, we're gonna talk about two other terms. Mm-hmm, AMAB and AFAB. So. Go go.
[00:23:45] AC Goldberg: There even. So even as they're falling outta favor, yeah. People might still use that language to describe themselves. Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up because you should not use those term. Right. When we talk about cultural responsiveness, we talk about mirroring the language that your client uses.
If [00:24:00] someone uses that terminology for themselves, it's fine. You aren't gonna wanna with assign anyone any of these acronyms unless they assign them to themselves. Beautiful. Yeah. Um, those are, you know, but what's coming into favor now and replacing those terms are AMAB and AFAB, which are, you know, pronounced AMAB and AFAB, and AMAB means assigned male at birth.
And AFAB means assigned female at birth. Those are pretty, you know, cut and dry, straightforward terms that we understand what that means. Um, and that way it becomes a little less confusing, especially if, um, you are seeing that on a form, um, it makes a, you know, you understand what it means instead of FTM, which could mean in a couple of different things.
Um, and then there's NB a lot of people, um, do sometimes use this when they are abbreviating, um, for non-binary um, you actually shouldn't use NB. Um, it stands for non-black um, uh, the, the sort of, um, going way that non-binary people shorten non-binary is E [00:25:00] N B Y. Um, and they'll say enby, um, and I know that looked, that could look like an N and a B, but it's spelled E N B Y.
Um, if you write an N and a B, it means non-black, um, and we wanna make sure that we're not accidentally, um, you know, stepping on any toes racially there. Um, but that does sometimes happen when people are, are abbreviating. Um, and I think that that's all the terms that we have, um, that are acronyms. Um, but I'm sure that as we continue talking, we will say more acronyms and we'll have to come back.
And Barb, you have the next slide, I believe
[00:25:37] Barb Worth: I do. So we're continuing on this road of being clinically competent, culturally responsive. Um, but I did wanna talk a little bit about clinical competency and I, you know, um, I came into this area of the field having a very strong voice background. I know that not everybody who does this type of work has the [00:26:00] type of experience that I have.
However, I do really recommend that if you are interested in this type of work, that you go back to your voice class or take a voice class or do some research, um, it's really important to understand anatomy and physiology of the voice and the vocal mechanism when you do this type of work, because, you know, we, we could hurt people just like when you're doing dysphagia therapy.
You could hurt somebody. And when you do this type of work, you could hurt somebody. And so it is so important to know about normal anatomy and physiology, and also to really understand how to screen for a voice disorder. Some people, um, you know, there's an incidence of voice disorders across, you know, all of the type of people that we see in our profession.
Right. Um, but some people who do some self, um, voice modification. [00:27:00] So i.e. they're looking at YouTube videos, um, they're getting help from friends to modify their voices. Sometimes some of that work that they're doing is actually, um, not the best with regards to vocal health. So we actually have people who come to us who end up with muscle tension dysphonia um, particularly there, there are some practices where people are sort of raising their larynx, particularly people who wanna feminize their voice. Um, and some of the ways in which they're doing that can actually cause, um, some voice problems. So very important to understand, um, and know how to screen for, uh, voice disorders and to.
always err, on the side of, if you're not sure, refer that person to an otolaryngologist, um, for a comprehensive, um, examination. Um, so I really recommend that, um, Second of all. I think, you know, [00:28:00] AC already talked about this, but you know, do your homework with regards to, um, cultural competency and also clinical competency in that you take some courses.
So I'm so happy that you're listening to us, but let's not stop there. Um, there are some wonderful people doing wonderful things in our profession. Um, uh, you know, uh, Sandy Hirsch and, and, and her colleagues give a, uh, yearly conference on this. Um, there are other people doing wonderful work, um, seek them out.
There's also, um, a gender spectrum voice and communication, Facebook page. Uh, I know lots of people, uh, uh, get ideas there. Um, post some, uh, some questions to the community, um, help I have this client, I don't know what to do. Can you help me? Um, I also, I really recommend forming a study group. So when I first started doing this, this work, there weren't that many of us in the Boston area.
And [00:29:00] so we actually formed our own study group. We met on a monthly basis, actually at a hotel in, in Walham, Massachusetts , um, we found sort of this area, it was, and we shared, um, information. We discussed journal articles. Um, it was a fantastic. Now with zoom, you can do this with people across the, the country.
So find some people who are interested in this, um, and, um, and, and learn, learn from each other.
[00:29:30] Kate Grandbois: And I also just wanna remind our listeners that you all had come done, done a previous episode. With a specific focus on the clinical components of yes. Voice and resonance. And I remember cuz you asked me a bunch of questions and I knew the answers to zero of your questions because I know nothing about this. Um, but in that episode you did include a very. Comprehensive resource list with books and articles. We will link that in the show notes as well. So anybody who's listening who wants to [00:30:00] improve cultural competency specific to some of those found foundation specific to foundational knowledge related to voice, we can link some of those resources here as well.
[00:30:07] Barb Worth: Beautiful. And, you know, and I wanted to say too, that this is not an intro class, what, what AC and I are doing. So as we move forward, um, you know, we're not gonna explain the basis, uh, basics of how to do this type of work. Um, you know, for listeners, we're sort of assuming that, you know, the elements of how to do this work.
Um, we're gonna talk about things like resonance and pitch and intonation. We're, we're not gonna just define those concepts because we're sort of assuming that, you know, those things, um, and we're assuming that you have some tools already in your toolbox. Um, so this specific, um, podcast is about working with a very specific, um, A part of this population.
Um, so we're gonna continue on, um, talking about using non-gendered language.
[00:30:57] AC Goldberg: A lot of clients are really triggered by gendered [00:31:00] language. Um, you know, obviously you wanna make sure that you're mirroring the language that your client is using. Um, but when you're thinking about working with someone who's non-binary, even if their goals sort of squarely line up with what you consider voice feminization or voice masculinization that might be, you know, a MIS categorization and a microaggression against the person who isn't trying to be more feminine, they're just trying to be more themself.
Um, you know, and even though there are goals line up with things like a more high front resonance, you know, maybe a change in pitch, um, change in body language that you would associate with femininity to them, it's just associated with their vibe and their gender. Um, so we want to kind of attempt to, from this point in our, um, in our recording forward, uh, Talk about the voice, as we're talking about these things without using gendered language.
And what we're gonna do is as we proceed [00:32:00] through, um, we are going to, um, you know, call each other in and say, you know, okay, Ooh, that was gendered. Like let's, let's reframe it. And let's see what we could say. Because as a clinician, I find myself doing this all the time, you know, with your clients, you're gonna establish your own set of vocabulary about what, the type of voices that they want to have.
So. When you are working with a client to establish that vocabulary, you know, obviously you're gonna be asking them, well, whose voice do you like listening to? You know, what does that sound like? What does that feel like to you? You know, can we try it on together? Um, and then you're gonna come up with words that, you know, make sense for that, you know?
Okay. Um, we can call that, you know, the twinkle effect. Um, we can call that your smooth sound. We can call that your boom, um, you know, we can call, we can call those things, any words that, that we want to use in here, and those don't have a gendered, those don't have a gendered [00:33:00] expectation associated with them.
Um, yes, Kate,
[00:33:03] Kate Grandbois: I just wanna make a point quickly how, if anyone's listening and, and, and feeling like that might be really challenging. I just wanna emphasize that it, it can feel challenging and that's okay. I even find myself having spent a lot of time with both of you, um, Even now, even still I find myself saying, all right, guys, you know, gendered language is so fluent for us as people.
Um, and I think it's, it's okay to take that moment, feel uncomfortable, you know, lean into it, forgive yourself, move forward again. We're not gonna get into that soapbox. There's a lot more information in a previous course that you did with us. Um, but also to accept that it's, it can be fluent. It can feel uncomfortable and how important it is to establish, um, a safe space and, um, components of trust so that you can do this with a client in the clinical setting.
I just wanted to say that quickly, because I know how easy it is, [00:34:00] um, to AC, you know, to, to fall into these gendered vocabulary traps, I guess we could call them cuz it, it is really a, a part of our, our fluent language. Um, as people.
[00:34:11] Barb Worth: You know, I think that you, you actually, this is a great segue because talking about sort of trust and talking about creating a safe space, there are ways that we can do that.
There are ways that we really, there are things that we really need to be very conscious about, very mindful about. And so Ace's gonna talk to us about sort of the things that we can do in our intakes and our interviews. And so from the very, very start from the moment that we meet our clients, how we can create a safe space.
[00:34:47] AC Goldberg: So, you know, That all starts with your institution, obviously with your intake forms, you have to make sure that they don't make someone check off an M, an F box. And you know, if that they do ask for people's pronouns [00:35:00] right up front, they do ask what name we should call you. And that's all, again, things that we've gone through in previous episodes, but when you're discussing goals with your client, because let's assume that all that has happened and they've had a great experience coming into your office, um, you wanna make sure that you're mirroring the language, um, that someone uses and ask them clarifying questions if they use gender terminology.
Um, not because, you know, not because you can't mirror their own gender terminology, but because sometimes people's gendered terminology is because they don't have the terms to describe the vocal qualities that they're looking for. You know, someone might come in and say, I wanna sound, you know, I'm a non-binary person.
I wanna sound more girly. Um, You have to ask them well, what do you mean by that? You know, who sounds girly? Like who sounds girly to you? Can we, can we get an example? Like I, you know, maybe we can, maybe we can make sure that we have the same understanding of that because what it all comes down to there is [00:36:00] that somebody might use the word girly and have a completely different understanding of what that means than their clinician and, you know, making sure that you come together and understand that vocabulary and then deconstructed and take the gender out.
If your client, you know, uh, permits. You know, say they might say like, oh, I wanna go into my girly set, but you know, that's a set that involves, you know, four different things. Um, you know, if they like that term, go ahead and, you know, go for it. But making sure that you understand what someone means by those words, because we are so conditioned.
To think of things in these binary, in these binary terms, you know, if somebody says like, you know, I wanna sound, I wanna have a more, you know, I, a more masculine sound, well, maybe they're talking about, they just want to have chest resonance. Um, and you know, they may not wanna sound more masculine. They may just wanna sound more like themselves, but they don't have the terms for things like chest resonance.
So coming up with those, you know, with those terms together, understanding what your client needs, coming up with things together that really builds the, the, the [00:37:00] therapeutic rapport. Um, you know, the part of therapeutic rapport building with your client is really getting a chance to understand and see them as their gender.
Um, you know, which is something that I think, you know, not all non-binary people are the same and, you know, that's one thing that I think, I mean, not all, not nobody is the same as anyone else, but I think a lot of times I get questions like, well, how do you do non-binary voice? And, you know, that's a… That question is obviously, you know, coming from a really good place.
And I understand why people feel like they don't know, but it's the same as any other type of gender expansive voice work in that all you're doing is figuring out how the client wants to express their gender through their voice, coming up with a common, you know, terminology for it, and then goal setting alongside your client.
Um, you know, there are other things that to consider, like a lot of people will sometimes assume that non-binary means [00:38:00] androgynous, although that might be the goal. And that might be the presentation of one person. That you're seeing it isn't the goal or presentation of all non-binary people non-binary is definitely many, many, many, many non-binary genders there isn't just one non-binary gender.
Um, so making sure that you understand, um, you know, what the person is going for is very important and not sort of just assuming that they want something more neutral or androgynous, unless they ask for that. And another really important sort of safety consideration when you're establishing rapport with a client is talking to them about, um, like.
Safety around their body, especially when you're doing things like breath work. Um, anyone could be wearing a compression garment, like a, like a chest binder. Um, and we never wanna assume that because of someone's gender expression, um, gender identity, or the words that they're using for themselves, that they're not wearing something like that.
Um, you know, you just can't tell what someone's, what's under [00:39:00] someone's clothes. That is, you know, um, one of the things that is, you know, important to transgender and non-binary people and gender nonconforming people is that people are not trying to judge those things. So you just, you know, you don't know.
Um, and it's very important to sort of ask those things in a comfortable way and, you know, make sure that you say like, okay, I wanna do some breathwork because we're gonna be working on loud voice. Um, but I'm a little concerned because I don't know whether, you know, whether you're wearing any sort of compression garments, if you are like, you don't have to have the person disclose to you what they're wearing.
Like, if you are, why don't I demonstrate and you can do this at home. And if you're, if you're in a clinic and if you're over zoom, um, you could say like, you know, um, if you're comfortable doing this, you know, by yourself, here's. Here's how I would do it. If you wanna do it with me, um, you know, you can turn off your camera.
Um, because a lot of the time people aren't comfortable, um, showing themselves when they're not wearing these garments, even if you're only seeing them from here to here, um, people feel very uncomfortable about their bodies. That's part of [00:40:00] the experience of, you know, your gender, not aligning with, you know, certain elements of the way that society sees your body.
Um, you wanna, you know, prompt them, you know, to only engage in things like breath work, if they're not wearing something tight and we all understand that's because injuries to the chest wall are really common. You're expanding your, you know, if you're expanding your rib cage, if you're trying to get, you know, like really, um, loud quality to your voice, you can't do that safely if you're wearing something very tight. Um, so that's something that's very important and it's very important that, you know, your client understand that you, you understand, and you know that, and that you're trying to keep them safe. And, you know, that's the point of sort of that line of questioning because the whole, um, There are a lot of insensitive lines of questioning that come to transgender and non-binary people in clinical settings and the person understanding the point of the line of questioning or the sort of like, I'm gonna demonstrate some breathwork.
If you're wearing a compression garment, I don't want you to do this right now. I want you to do it, you know, by yourself, in your house without me present and just kind of giving [00:41:00] someone an out to not discuss it is great. Um, and saying, you know, it's only because of your safety and because you could injure yourself, um, and that will help someone understand that they can trust you.
They don't have to disclose what they're wearing or what they're not wearing. And then, you know, you've sort of given them an, an out to not have to engage right away in something that like, uh, oh, I'm in a clinic, I'm wearing something. I don't, you know, I don't think I can do this right now. So making sure that you understand, but without asking specifically, um, is important.
Um, and I don't know, did I miss anything there, Barb about that sort of.
[00:41:35] Barb Worth: I don't. I don't think so. I mean, I, I, I don't think so as far as intake and, and I mean, and just thinking about therapy in general, I think, you know, AC and I were talking yesterday about what information we wanted to, to, to present.
And we were talking about sort of the differences between working with someone who is non-binary and someone who is, uh, a trans woman or a trans man. Right? So [00:42:00] one of the things that, that, I mean, with all of our clients, it's so important to listen, right? It's so important to have an understanding of their goals.
Right. But I do think that working with people who are non-binary, um, sometimes their goals are having a voice that is very fluid, having a voice that can be different in different settings. Right. And that's when, when wer’re talking about terminology, it's so important to have shared vocabulary shared terms of what that means.
Yes. Kate
[00:42:41] Kate Grandbois: I was thinking about this earlier because AC you mentioned, uh, coming up with novel non-gendered language, like we're gonna call this your, your, the sparkle sound and yes. Or the boom. I, you had you it much better than me. Yes. But as you're going through that component of therapy, do you find it [00:43:00] helpful to play sound recordings or, or
Barb Worth: for some people
Kate Grandbois: to use other examples?
Only here I am a speech pathologist. Yes. And I'm thinking I would have a hard time describing what I want my voice to sound like. So
[00:43:12] Barb Worth: it's interesting Kate for some people. Yes. So I think for some people we spend time listening either we ask them to bring in voice samples or I have a, you know, basically a, a, a file filled with them.
And sometimes it's not like it's not, I want this voice. It's let's let's create some terminology about what you hear in this voice. Right? So we play sound recordings and they'll say, oh, when that, that person does this, that sounds like, boom, to me, like we use the word boom. Or when that person does that, I hear a twangy quality.
So now we have shared vocabulary and then we start to say, well, what did you think about that twangy quality? Is that something that you would ever wanna adapt into your [00:44:00] voice? And they say, yes, that's exactly what I was looking for or no, I would never wanna have that. Right. So, so then you're just sort of this, start this conversation.
And I think that makes a lot of sense.
[00:44:10] Kate Grandbois: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
[00:44:12] Barb Worth: And then, you know, it's go ahead AC
[00:44:13] AC Goldberg:. Yeah. I was gonna say the best part about that is when you're listening to voice samples together, um, not only do you get to kind of come up with that common shared language and, um, you get a lot of maybes, you know?
Yes. Maybe, maybe, and then you get to start exploring. And that, that is so ,uch fun. Right. Um, that's so much fun to, to say, okay, well, let's try that on and let's see how it feels. Right. And, you know, go down a list of like, well, that didn't feel good. That did feel good. Sorry. You,
[00:44:41] Kate Grandbois: I also have to assume that that can create moments of empowerment for someone where they are all of a sudden presented with choices.
Oh, I didn't, I didn't know that twang was a thing. I didn't know I could sparkle. I don't know. Boom, whatever. I mean, absolutely. Just having a moment of excitement and, you know, creating a [00:45:00] shared space of creativity and empowerment.
[00:45:03] Barb Worth: Well, and I think that, that they, they have to go hand in hand. So you have to create a, a shared space so that they are willing to put that on.
Right. So they, they, they, they are, they're one can't happen without the other. So the clients really have to feel safe with you. In order to try something onto, in order to explore, we use that term explore. That is, that is what I teach my, my graduate students use the word explore because otherwise for a client, it can feel very right or wrong.
I either do it or I, or I didn't do it and we don't want it to be about that. We wanted to, to be about. And that's the other thing that is also, you know, you talked about listening to other voices. We also don't want people, somebody to mimic another person. And did I do that right? That other person's voice correctly, it's not about that.
It's about finding something new that you can do with your voice and deciding if you wanna make that your own. We also talk about sort of [00:46:00] a recipe and, you know, we talk about, you know, we are creating a cake or we're creating a recipe and do we want a sprinkle of this, of a sprinkle of twang and a cup of boom and a, uh, I don't know, you know, and, and, and a and a half a cup of sparkle, you know, and, and, you know, we kind of get silly with that.
But I think that it, it helps people to sort of see it as an exploration, not as a writer or wrong. And, and, and I think Amy, you were gonna say something
[00:46:30] Amy Wonkka: I was just feeling like, and I don't know if it's because I don't do voice therapy, but I have no idea without this shared co-creation and co definition of terminology to describe voices.
I don't know how you would figure out how to help the clients. Outside of that process. Like, I, I guess I'm just like, it feels like wine to me, right? Like we all use these different, the descriptors to talk about wine, strawberry notes of notes of cherry. What is that? Well, it's like, well, it's like wine. I mean, it [00:47:00] really is.
[00:46:53] Barb Worth: And I think that, you know, your strawberry is my blueberry. You know, it doesn't matter. As long as I understand what you as a clinician, I understand what your strawberry is. And we have a shared definition. Or that the client understands what their strawberry is, that's what's important and that they can re recreate it.
And we do a lot of, okay, you got there now, do it five more times. Now do it 10 more times. You know, you're happy with what that, with that strawberry. Now I wanna hear it again. I wanna hear it again. I wanna hear it again so that there's sort of, you know, laying down that motor system so that they can continue to do it again and again, and again, do it at the word level, the phrase level, the sentence level, the conversation level and, and building that.
[00:47:41] AC Goldberg: And then you get to that higher up and then you get to build in strawberry boom and strawberry sparkle, and then we get all these seltzers in there.
Kate Grandbois: Um, I love this. It sounds so much like, so much fun.
AC Goldberg: It really is fun. It really is a fun, it's a fun clinical set to have. Yes. Um, because you know, [00:48:00] it's empowering, it's fun.
It can be silly. Um, and it's, it is very exploratory. Um, So it's important when you're working with non-binary people to, to make sure that you understand what their goals are. You know, not everyone wants an androgynous voice. Some people might want androgynous voice. You also wanna know, you know, are we creating a new voice that you want to use habitually?
Or are we creating one new vocal set that you're gonna use in certain specific situations? Or are we creating a couple of different vocal sets? Yes. Because you are gender fluid and yes, you want to present differently at different times. Um,
[00:48:40] Barb Worth: so we have people who come and say, I need, I want strawberry voice in, in with my partner.
Strawberry voice is, is, is what I want, but I need blueberry voice in a work setting. And I need to know, I need to, to be able to code switch between. And again, this is another difference with [00:49:00] sometimes with working with non-binary folks is that they need this ability to sort of move back and forth maybe between different voices in different situations, in different settings, depending upon how, how they're, they're feeling in the moment, what they're, you know,
[00:49:15] AC Goldberg: or how they wanna be read, like how, oh, they, how they want for
[00:49:17] Barb Worth: safety situations.
[00:49:18] AC Goldberg: Safety, right. Safety is really important. I, you know, that's one of the first things that I work on with people is, you know, yes. Um, let's work. That it's funny that that's, um, you know, first I sort of try and establish this shared vocabulary and understand their goals. And then I'm like, okay, let's get to safety first.
Right? When are you least safe? And what vocal set do you want? And when we were talking yesterday, Barb, we talked about how Uber comes up a lot.
Barb Worth: Oh, Uber comes up a lot.
AC Goldberg:This is no shade to Uber, but people feel very unsafe in their Ubers because yes, you know, they've got whatever username they've got and then sometimes you get a call and then you're in a car with a stranger.
And it's scary because they don't know, you know, you don't know them, they don't know you. Um, oh my gosh. I could [00:50:00] tell a story that would take up the rest of our session about me having to fight, to get into an Uber that I ordered because they called me and clocked me as, as female, which happens to me often on the phone.
Um, and
[00:50:13] Barb Worth: this is yeah, the phone and the phone, you know, and one of the thing, you know, AC and I were talking about is that it's, it's these certain situations that, that maybe safety, or maybe, you know, it's sort of like aunt Mary aunt Mary is not accepting of my, of my gender. So I need to sort of. put on strawberry voice for, for aunt Mary to the extreme, right?
So on the phone to be extreme to the, to the lift, to be extreme for aunt Mary or whatever situations that might be hostile or unfriendly or not open. Um, so we teach people to do that. So, you know, it's not role, role playing. We role
[00:50:53] AC Goldberg: play situations, role playing is all, is all the time. And it's really fun to role play.
Um, you know, that's, it's my favorite type [00:51:00] of, um, therapeutic activity, regardless of the type of therapy I love role playing, um, because it's silly and it's funny. Um, and it gets people sort of out of their comfort zone, but it also really helps people. You know, relax and expand Uhhuh, you know, and it, it does also help that therapeutic rapport, because as, as someone who's role playing with someone else, you're also taking risks.
You're also making mistakes. You're also doing things silly. Um, you're also saying that didn't come out right. Did that sound strawberry to you? You know, I was trying to do strawberry there. Let me try again. And by modeling, like I didn't do that. I, I, I don't think I heard that. Let me try again. For your client, it shows that, you know, we can't be an expert in every single person's voice. Present vocal presentation, but we can show them that, you know, we can learn different vocal presentations too, alongside them and, you know, um, and that they will be able to do it. Um, but yeah, that sort of that code switching, um, comes up and is really important for [00:52:00] a lot of members of this community, um, because of safety.
Um, and because of people, either the varying levels of acceptance that people experience as they, you know, walk through their lives,
[00:52:11] Barb Worth: I know the really helpful tool are functional phrases. So, you know, having clients sort of come up with a list of phrases of like, let's take the Uber driver. What do you say to the Uber driver?
What do you say on the phone to the Uber driver? What do you say in person to the Uber driver so that they practice that strawberry voice with the, you know, beforehand and in the, the confines of their bedroom or a safe space so that when they, that when they need to get into set that vocal set, they get into the lift, they get, they, they have those sort of very automatized phrases that they use with the Uber driver and using the, the, their, their desired voice.
Um, yes, Kate,
[00:52:51] Kate Grandbois: you may have gone over this in a previous episode, but in these situations, do you ever recommend or prescribe a certain amount of list, [00:53:00] someone listening to their own voice? A little bit of biofeedback. I know
[00:53:03] Barb Worth: I may or may not. It's very loading. So they, again, it's having that conversation with your client.
If that is something that they wanna engage in, I never, never require it. It is always optional. It can, it can be triggering for just for you. And, and also, as we know with audio, it is not a full representation of our, of our voice, right. There's limitations to it. Um, so we, we need to really counsel our clients around audio recording.
[00:53:32] AC Goldberg: Yeah. And it can just be, so it can be so triggering that, you know, yeah. Sometimes someone who's like, oh, I've, you know, I've gotten so much positive feedback on my voice. I'm ready to listen to it. Sometimes they listen to it and it devastates them. Yes. And that's, you know, a place where, you know, you go with your client, that's devastating to you also because you know that their voice is getting them, you know, read correctly.
Um, gender wise all the time, they're feeling comfortable, they're feeling confident and [00:54:00] they hear it and they don't like it. Um, and that, you know, It's so loaded and some people wanna hear the recordings all the time because they want to, they wanna know, did I do it right? How did that sound, what did that sound like?
That's a very individual thing. Um, I always do take recording samples. Um, you know, part of my, um,
[00:54:19] Barb Worth: oh yes.
Kate Grandbois: Data collection strategy. Yes.
[00:54:23] AC Goldberg: It's the,
[00:54:23] Kate Grandbois: that you don't routinely share unless you've had that conversation. Exactly.
[00:54:27] AC Goldberg: Exactly. That's like my second question to someone, you know, you feel comfortable having your voice recorded.
I have to record it for my own purposes, but you never have to hear it. Um, would you ever want it to be played back to you? Um, and if you do like here's, you know, what we can do, or we can take recordings every so often, um, or we can only take them, you know, beginning and end or what, you know, whatever you want.
But I just having that baseline recording is, is an important thing to have because you're probably analyzing that for a lot of different things. Um, and. You don't want to force someone to listen to something that's gonna bring them [00:55:00] into that dysphoric place, because that can lead to shutting down and in, you know, you've gotta have really good counseling skills.
Um, and it takes a lot to walk someone back from that feeling and get them to reengage with you in a session. Um, you know, it's necessary because that's gonna happen, um, in voice therapy, but recording is like one of the primary ways to, you know, set that off for a lot of people. So we just have to be very careful.
[00:55:26] Kate Grandbois: I'm so glad I asked now we know. Yes,
[00:55:28] Barb Worth: yes.
So in continuing to talk about exploration, I, I really wanna emphasize. The word, no. Or pass, that we always need to give our clients the option to say pass. I don't, I don't, I'm not, I'm not comfortable doing that. That is not what I wanna do. Um, I create a lot, I give people a lot of options. Would you like to try this or would you like to try this?
Um, we do a lot of group work, particularly as our clients are sort of, you know, moving in their journey, moving in [00:56:00] the hierarchy. Um, they maybe they've had some individual work they're feeling now. I, I really want some more opportunities to, to work on my voice in it with, um, in a social settings.
[00:56:10] AC Goldberg: I wanna circle into circle into, um, instances of misgendering, because we do a lot with binary trans, um, folks, and, you know, kind of when we're role playing, giving them the tools to respond and scripts, to respond to instances of misgendering, which is another one of those counseling tools to pull, pull out of your toolbox, you know?
Yes, because it does feel really, really, really bad to get misgendered. Non-binary people are misgendered all the time because everyone's trying to gender them in one, you know, in one way or another, and they're not necessarily trying to do the, any harm. Um, but you know, it's really important that you discuss with your non binary clients, you know, Do you want to assert yourself as non-binary in those moments, if you're safe, um, you know, and if you're not safe, you know, with like, do you have a direction you would prefer to go in?
Because some people will say, you know, I don't mind if I'm [00:57:00] called miss, but if I'm called, sir, I will lose my mind. And you know, they need to have a set in those situations where they, you know, can be extra. Just like when we talk about phone voice, we talk a lot about phone, voice, and, um, you. Phone voice is double, triple, extra your, your voice.
I mean, it is, you know, it is the, if I did my phone voice, you would be like, you know, who is this wound? Because apparently my phone voice still sounds, um, it has remnants of, you know, a, a former gen gender presentation. Um, but phone voice, you have to, if you are, you know, like aiming for a high front resonance, you have to go past what you think even sounds, you know, even sounds like a typical person just to get someone to gender you correctly over the phone.
Um, you know, and when you're non-binary, you know, It's important to kind of choose how you want your presentation to be in those instances, you know, is it going to be more triggering if you are read [00:58:00] in one direction or another, how will you respond? You know, um, if you're safe, are you gonna say, you know, um, oh, you know what?
You don't have to call me, sir, or ma'am, um, in fact, you can just call me Max, um, and my pronouns are they in that and then move on with your day? Or are you gonna wanna just kind of switch into a set that is either going to get you read as male or female, um, so that you can just get the interaction over with and move on.
This happens a lot. There's masks involved. Um, you know, we talked about situations like getting into, you know, getting into a cab, that type of thing. Um, there are you. Lots of places where people can play with their gender, the, their gender presentation in these vocal sets, especially online, like with gaming, yes.
People can practice these sets and see how they're gendered when they're using, you know, um, extra strawberry sparkle or when they're using strawberry. Boom, you know, how does that get you gendered when you're playing this game? And people have a lot of [00:59:00] freedom exploration and, you know, just a lot of ability to be very expansive in those online role playing games.
Yes. Um, that they don't have in other situations. So that's a great tool to have in your toolbox, um, for your clients to use.
[00:59:16] Kate Grandbois: You are both such a wealth of knowledge, I'm feeling so inspired by all of this. I think it sounds like fun therapy. I think
Barb Worth: it sure is
Kate Grandbois: you, you came into this with such an important point in terms of looking at all of this and approaching all of this through the culturally responsive lens, making sure as clinicians, we do that work first before moving into, um, the clinical voice components.
And as we wrap up, I'm just wondering if you have any part for anybody listening, who wants to learn more, who is curious, um, what are your words of advice or parting words of wisdom
[00:59:56] Barb Worth: AC?
Kate Grandbois: Um, loaded question. I know
Barb Worth:there's [01:00:00] so many, it's hard. It's hard to know.
[01:00:01] AC Goldberg: to know. Yeah. I, you know, mine is about expectations. Um, you know, managing people's expectations around, um, around their voice, especially if they're gonna be, um, having more than one vocal set, you know, if you're not moving toward a new habitual voice, if you're moving toward a couple of different vocal sets, it will be a little bit harder.
For someone to, you know, very easily gain access to that set, to switch back and forth easily and fluidly between two or three different vocal sets. So managing someone's clinical expectations around, you know, how long it will take to feel comfortable using this voice, um, you know, managing your own expectations.
How long is this person gonna be on my caseload? You know, how long will it take to teach three different vocal sets? You know, some people, some people take a long time, some people it won't, but, you know, understanding or having one primary set and then two safety subsets. These are all things that come up when you're working with non-binary gender nonconforming, [01:01:00] gender fluid, and gender queer individuals, and even agender people.
Um, and also understanding how to manage societal expectations. You know, your client, um, might, you know, wonder when can I expect other people to see me as this, when I'm using this voice and that's all difficult to navigate and, you know, falls into that counseling subset, that is so important. And I think that my parting word of wisdom here is you really need a strong background in counseling to engage in this work in general,
[01:01:31] Barb Worth: AC you just took the words right outta my mouth. I mean, I, you know, it really is. And I think that, um, I think being an active listener, knowing what questions to ask, but also really hearing the terminology that they're using and really understanding the expectations, um, being fully present, creating that safe space, really [01:02:00] knowing that you are walking in a journey with someone and really honoring that.
And not letting your biases get in the way of what you think is yeah, and right. And I think we talked about cultural responsiveness being ongoing. So making sure that you are doing the work yourself and listening to podcasts like this, going to conferences, doing all this important work, to make sure that you're keeping your biases in check, um, and that you will really understand this incredible area of our field.
When you said it sounds like fun. It is so much fun. And it's an honor to walk people with people in this journey.
[01:02:53] Kate Grandbois: I love how you phrased that you are both such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Um, [01:03:00] for anyone listening, who wants to learn more everything we mentioned, um, all of the resources, all of the links will be listed in the show notes.
We will be putting links over to previous episodes over to AC’s transplaining platform, as well as the credit platform, where there are courses available for graduate level credit, um, that do much deeper dives into other areas of cultural responsiveness. Thank you both again so much for being here and we hope to have you back again soon.
[01:03:26] Barb Worth: Thank you always. Thanks for having always a pleasure. Wonderful. .
[01:03:30] Kate Grandbois: Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study.
Please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as [01:04:00] always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com
thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon.
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