Access Research Beyond the Paywall

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Intro

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Amy Wonkka: Wonka. We are both speech, language pathologists working in the field and co-founders of SLP nerd cast. Each 

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Episode

Kate Grandbois: Hello, everyone. Welcome to SLP Nerdcast. We are here today to talk about a topic that we have mentioned many times on the show, but we have two expert guests here to walk us through a lot of the detail. Welcome Danica Pfeiffer and Helen Long. [00:02:00] Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be here. Thank you, Danica and Helen.

Amy Wonkka: You are both here to discuss ways to access research beyond the paywall. I'm super pumped about this topic, um, but before we get started, can you please tell us a little bit about yourselves? Sure. So my name is Danica Pfeiffer. I am an SLP and an assistant professor at Old Dominion University. And my research is in enhancing children's early language and literacy skills by building collaborative school based partnerships.

Danika Pfeiffer: But I'm also a volunteer with CS Disseminate with Helen and that's a group dedicated to promoting research accessibility in our field and so really excited to be here today to talk more about that. Yeah, and I'm Helen Long. I'm a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Wisconsin Madison. Um, my primary line of research studies early vocal development in kids at risk for [00:03:00] cerebral palsy.

Helen Long: Uh, and I'm also a collaborator with CS Disseminate, um, and I'm happy to be here. We're so happy to have you. The research practice gap is a massive problem, uh, that we've addressed in a few other episodes, but we've never had the opportunity to talk specifically about the paywall problem and how difficult it is for clinicians to access research.

Kate Grandbois: So we're really excited to get into this before we do get into this conversation. I do need to read our learning objectives and disclosures. So I will get through that as quickly as I can. Learning objective number one, describe five free and legal strategies for accessing research articles. Learning objective number two, identify common myths about accessing research articles.

And learning objective number three, explain the different versions of research articles that authors may share. Disclosures, Danica's financial disclosures. Danica receives a salary from Old Dominion University. Danica also received an honorarium for participating in this [00:04:00] course. Danica's non financial disclosures.

She is that Danica is a collaborator with CS disseminate and open CSD groups of volunteer CSD scientists and clinicians passionate about bridging the gap between scientific research and clinical practice, Helen's financial disclosures, Helen receives a salary from university of Wisconsin, Madison.

Helen also received an honorarium for participating in this course. Helen's non financial disclosures. Helen is a collaborator with CS Disseminate and OpenCST, groups of volunteer CSD scientists and clinicians passionate about bridging the gap between scientific research and clinical practice. Kate, that's me, my financial disclosures.

I am the owner and founder of Grand Bois Therapy and Consulting LLC and co founder of SLP Nerdcast. My non financial disclosures, I am a member of ASHA SIG 12 and serve on the AAC advisory group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. I'm also a member of the Berkshire Association for Behavior Analysis and Amy, that's me.

Amy Wonkka: My financial disclosures are that I'm an [00:05:00] employee of a public school system and co founder of SLP Nerdcast, and my non financial disclosures are that I am a member of ASHA Special Interest Group 12, and I participate in the AAC Advisory Group for Massachusetts Advocates for Children. All right, on to the good stuff.

Uh, Danica and Helen, as, as somebody who has personally struggled to access articles that are behind a paywall, I'm really excited to learn about free and legal ways to access this information. Uh, before we get into that though, could you start us off with just a quick overview of some of the current problems and misconceptions related to accessing research?

Danika Pfeiffer: Sure. So I think one of the big problems that our group really works to try to help solve is that it takes on average 17 years for research evidence to be used in clinical practice. And this is So much time. Um, and it's really unfortunate because in the research we find that these interventions are working and [00:06:00] we can't, they don't get implemented for so many years.

And so that's one of the biggest problems that our group is trying to help tackle, but we really need all of us clinicians and researchers to work together to tackle that one. We also know that there's a lot of misconceptions around publishing in general, and so, um, one of them is that Researchers are not allowed to share their work for free.

Um, there's a misconception there that clinicians are not able to reach out to researchers to ask them for their articles when they can. We actually can, as researchers, share our work. If clinicians email us and ask us for a copy of our work, we can send it to them. Um, and so that's one of the things that we'll get into a little bit more today.

Helen, do you want to share some other misconceptions?

Helen Long: Man, that was like a really great summary. Um, yeah, I think a huge misconception is [00:07:00] that, um, gosh, I think you actually covered it. I don't know. I think I'm, I'm definitely going to skip ahead because I'm, I'm thinking about emailing the corresponding author, but there, there seems to be just a misconception about, um, Like if if you can't access the article directly through the publisher, then it's just unavailable to you.

And I think, like so many of our suggestions that we'll have for you today are that that's just not true. And I think one of the easiest ways to do it is emailing. Uh, the corresponding author, which you can usually view on the publisher website or the first page of the PDF, um, and don't be afraid to do it.

Kate Grandbois: I just want to second that because I, I mentioned this to you all before we hit the record button, but as part of this little nerdy project, we have to cold call and reach out to people way more frequently than I do in [00:08:00] my personal life. Um, and I am repeatedly. Surprised by the kindness and enthusiasm that comes with the reply that I receive.

So. I'd say eight times out of 10, I get not only a reply, but, oh, and here's another article that you might like, or I've cc'd my colleague on this email who does adjacent research that you might be interested in. There is a tremendous amount of transparency and enthusiasm in my, in my experience and both Amy and ours experience about what kind of information you can get just when you reach out.

Um, I think that there is. You know, this conception from the clinician's end that researchers are sort of, they're exclusive, they're elusive, they're, but they're people, they're, you know, people just like me, you know, it's like a celebrity kind of thing. I, and every single piece of contact that we've made with a researcher, the response has been warm and welcoming.

So I [00:09:00] just want to second that, um, if you're listening and that is a conception that you have, give it a shot. It's, it's really worked out well for us. Yeah, 

Helen Long: yeah, I just I bring that one up first because I think there's just a misconception that if you email the author then they're like going to be offended in some way that you're wasting their time, but it's like, so the opposite of that.

This is one of the biggest interests in their world and it's so exciting. Knowing that someone is interested in your work and they want to apply what you've written about into practice and like these are the emails that we want to be answering every day. So do it. 

Amy Wonkka: I think connected with that is also something that I didn't realize until I was, I was involved in some work in this area, which is.

The authors aren't getting paid if you pay for the article, right? Like they're not getting paid. And when you see those articles that are open access [00:10:00] articles, the authors had to pay for that. I was 

Kate Grandbois: just, when I was just going to say this, yes, 

Amy Wonkka: this is another, like you're not skirting around the author getting paid by you buying the article.

And emailing them, they're not getting paid at 

Helen Long: all. I 

Kate Grandbois: was just going to piggyback on, just to piggyback on what you said, and I'm sorry I interrupted you, but it was astonishing when Amy and I had the opportunity to do some of this work and collaborate with publishers and work on a piece together, a manuscript.

The publishing process. Was very in order to publish something as open access was going to cost money out of the author's pockets and I have had people, you know, I have heard some of the misconceptions before that if a piece of work isn't published as open access, then the authors had some choice in that, right?

Like they're going to profit, um, but it's the actual, it's completely the opposite. Can you talk to us a little bit more, like, just a peek behind the curtain, [00:11:00] what is that process like if an author wants to publish something as open access? 

Danika Pfeiffer: Yeah, so when we start a research project, one of the things that we do right away is choose what's the potential journal that this piece, this study could fit in, and so when we are deciding where do we want to submit this work and where do we want to write this up to go, We, one of the big things that we look at is, is there an open access fee, or there's different kinds of open access in some journals.

One in our field is teaching and learning and communication sciences and disorders. They do not charge authors to publish their work open access. So it's completely free for researchers and it's completely free for clinicians. So you can go onto their website and find all of the articles there for free.

So, When we're deciding where to publish, that's something that we definitely consider. Other places have those [00:12:00] article processing charges, is what they're called, APCs, and those can be thousands of dollars. So usually if you don't have a grant that's funding your work, then that's not really doable for many researchers.

Some researchers are starting to put them in their startup packages when they first start at a new university to try to cover some of those costs. But otherwise, it's usually just grant funds that that money comes from. So especially for new researchers in the field like myself, we don't have thousands of dollars to be putting towards publishing our work.

Kate Grandbois: That makes a lot of sense. And, you know, there are, there are a lot of people. Well, maybe not. I'm actually not sure how many, but there are individuals that don't have any grant money who are publishing like Amy and myself. And in those instances, if the manuscript that you've Written and you're shopping around for journals does have a fee.

When we had our conversation with our coauthors, we were discussing taking it out of our own pockets at one point, [00:13:00] because there really aren't, there is a whole web of industry around this. And if the journal doesn't have. A no fee or low fee open access entry point, then that money does need to come from somewhere or clinicians have the option to access it through other legal ways if it's not already open access.

Can you tell us a little bit about other ways, other legal ways to access an article if it is behind a paywall?

Danika Pfeiffer: Yes, so we have compiled a few different ways that clinicians can access this research. One of them is going through the ASHA journals. So if you're an ASHA member, then you can access these articles for free, which is great. But sometimes when you go onto the website and you So if you are looking at an article that's been published in one of the ASHA journals, you'll see that it immediately says no access, and something that we just want to remind you is that you have to [00:14:00] log in.

So make sure that you have put in all of your login information, because if you haven't, then it will tell you that you can't access the article. So it's really easy. All you have to do is log in, and then you have access to all of the articles in that five different ASHA journals, which is really great.

Um, another. One that you can use is called Unpaywall, which is a browser plugin. So all you have to do is you go into the Unpaywall website, and it's an online database that has over 47 million open access journals. So they scour the internet, they find all of the free versions of articles that have been published.

And when you go on the website, you just Click, um, to add this browser extension to your Chrome browser, and then when you're searching online for an article, it will show this little green icon that shows you if there's any free versions available of it online. It's really quick, really [00:15:00] easy, and on their website, they report that 52 percent of users of this unpaywall extension can access research papers for free, so they do a lot of digging themselves, which makes it much quicker for you to know if there is any of these free versions available, and it helps you find them really quickly.

The next one that I'll share is something that I think many of us are pretty familiar with using Google or Google Scholar. So Google Scholar is a great place to find research. It's a free search engine similar to Google, but it can help you find those academic papers. And when you go on to Google Scholar, you can either type in the article title or the author's names, and that can help you to find the article.

And once you've found the one that you're looking for, on the right hand side in the column next to the article's title, sometimes you'll see a link that says PDF. And that means that [00:16:00] there is a free PDF version that has been linked in Google Scholar for you. So you just click on that link PDF right there, and you can pull up that free version.

If that doesn't work, you can try looking to see, when you look at the article title, it'll have the author's name linked to it. And if the author's names are underlined in blue, that means that they have a Google Scholar profile. And a Google Scholar profile is for academics, and it basically compiles all of their work in one place.

So if you click on their name, and it will populate all of the work that they have done, all of their articles, all together on one webpage. And that's another place that you can look to see if, um, there's a free version of the article there on their Google Scholar profile. What you'll often see on Google Scholar, too, is that it might say underneath the article title that there's several versions.

So it might say seven versions of the article [00:17:00] are available. So you also want to check there, because it might be that there's several paywall links, but then there might be a free version linked under that as well. So you want to definitely try all of those options, kind of click around and see if you can find a free version that way as well.

That's awesome. Um, as far as the finding the different versions of the articles, I know before we hit record on here, you had all mentioned that there are actually all these different types of articles, which Was sort of new information to me. I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that too.

Amy Wonkka: So part of what somebody might see on that Google Scholar is a few different types of articles.

Helen Long: Yeah, so one of the things, so kind of going back to our earlier conversation of when authors are deciding on what. journal to submit your paper to. So I'm going to talk just a little bit through the process of submitting your articles, [00:18:00] um, and then just the pipeline that it goes through because this relates to all these different kinds of articles that might be available to you as you are looking through these.

You know, new and exciting ways that, um, will make research available to you. Um, so once authors submit their paper to journals, Um, more and more journals are allowing paper, are allowing authors to share their articles as submitted versions. These are also known as preprints. There's also some, like, a lot of other terms that you might see floating around.

I think submitted version and preprint are the two most common terms. And preprints are becoming increasingly common. For authors to share their work before it's been peer reviewed because the peer reviewed process just takes so long. I mean, some, it usually doesn't take [00:19:00] less than two months, but sometimes it can take up to a year or more.

I've had a paper that was under review for two years. because it's just sometimes takes a long time to find a qualified peer reviewer to, you know, have the time to peer review your work. And so one of the ways I think it was, um, it really started growing in, uh, the field of psychology. But people started sharing their, um, submitted versions of manuscripts before they were peer reviewed because of this peer reviewed problem.

Um, and so there are a growing number of repositories online that people are able to share their pre prints. So again, these are the non peer reviewed versions of papers that are currently under peer review. Um, Just so that people can have access to these papers, at least in an initial draft. [00:20:00] Um, and of course, you know, this is not, I think there's a little bit of a misconception around preprints that, um, some people are worried that people are going to stop trying to get their work peer reviewed at all.

And I don't think that's what's happening at all. And it definitely shouldn't be what's happening. Um, but the point is that you can at least view a first draft of the work. While it's in the process of being peer reviewed. Um, and then the goal, of course, is that once it is peer reviewed, uh, then once it's accepted for publication, that then becomes the postprint or the accepted version of the manuscript, and then you end up replacing your earlier preprint version with that accepted version.

So now the version that's available of the manuscript. If you've shared it on one of these repositories, um, that is now the peer reviewed version, um, that's available and, and that one you can view with, um, a little bit more confidence than the pre print in terms [00:21:00] of, um, you know, this has been peer reviewed, it's been vetted by So, other experts in this area.

Um, and so the accepted version is kind of a unique version where it's the exact same copy as the published PDF, except it's just not as pretty. Um, it's just another like double spaced Word document that's kind of boring, but it's the exact same words and it's the exact same manuscript as the published version.

And it's the accepted version that, um, authors have a lot more freedom. For most publishers, I mean, of course, it really depends on what journal you go through. Some are a little more strict with what authors can do with accepted versions, but more and more, um, it's really only the, the publisher PDF that you can download straight from the website.

That's the version that the publishers own the copyright for, and that's the version that they're able to pay wall. But for most publishers, [00:22:00] authors can share their accepted versions just like they can their submitted versions. I have a question about the preprints. So if, let's say, someone were to find a preprint in one of these websites or through Google Scholar or wherever they find it, To what degree of caution does someone need to approach a preprint.

Kate Grandbois: In other words, we know that the peer review process is a gold standard of science. We know that once something has gone through the peer review process, many eyeballs have gone through it, and it really is as good as it could be. To what degree does someone need to be very wary of a preprint? In other words, is there a chance there is a preprint out there that is someone's musings and ramblings?

That is very far from, from something that would be accepted through peer review. Yeah, I do think clinicians and, and researchers too. I mean, I think anyone who's reading [00:23:00] a preprint who is knowingly reading a preprint should absolutely use an extremely critical eye. Um, but very much I think, uh, you know, the same critical eye that you would read, even just a regular peer reviewed article where you're judging the quality of the article is this something that I think I can legitimately apply to my Clinical practice.

Helen Long: Um, but, but I do. I absolutely think that pre prints should be judged even more critically because like you say, it could very much. It could very well be just a using and rambling and extremely biased piece of work that maybe all of those. Things will be weeded out by the time the peer review process is over.

Um, you know, you know, it's just a reflection of the unfortunate problem with the peer review process right now is that it's all in the hands of. Volunteers and just reviewers who are, you know, yes, this is a piece of work that interests me and [00:24:00] that I have no relationship with these people. And I want to see this piece of work.

out there, and I want to spend time reviewing this work. And, um, it, unfortunately, that's, um, really reliant on a lot of volunteers, just kind of, Giving their time to support the advancement of science, which is, of course, a necessary part of our job. But, um, yeah, I'm not sure if I answered your question. No, you did.

Kate Grandbois: You did. It makes me it brings me to another question about the self archive process. So I think which I think you mentioned briefly, um, I wonder if you could tell us about the self archive process and whether or not. Um, which is essentially for those who don't know when an author publishes on their own website, um, or makes it independently available from a publisher.

And I know you'll walk us through those details and correct me if I'm wrong, but to what degree a self archived process needs to be approached with caution? [00:25:00] That's a great question. So self archiving is something that researchers can do in a few different ways. And it's just a way of sharing our work more openly, more effectively, more quickly with clinicians and others that want to read our work.

Danika Pfeiffer: So one way that we can do that is putting establishing for ourselves our own personal website. So we can create our own website, or sometimes if you work at a university, you should have a webpage that's established for you. Sometimes, if you would be surprised, we aren't able to access our own websites that are available through our university, and someone else actually manages them.

So that's not a great tool for some researchers, which is why they might establish their own personal website. Um, or you could, at a lot of universities, have repositories, which is the central place for uploading your work. And that way, um, usually, [00:26:00] if it's within your university, then other researchers within your university can access your work very easily.

Um, there are more central open, um, repositories as well, like the Open Science Framework. There's a ton out there of places where you can also share your work, so lots of different places. Sometimes it's just hard to find the information, but again, if you just plug in that information in Google, Google Scholar, usually they will link for you and you can easily get there.

So when we want to self archive our work , there's really a lot of steps that we have to go through. So first is figuring out what the journal's policy is on self archiving. So each journal has a different policy. So as a researcher, when I wanna share my work on my personal website, I first have to go. to the journal's website to figure out what is their policy.

And this will outline which version of the work I can share, as well as when I can share that work. [00:27:00] So some journals place what's called an embargo on sharing the work, which means there's this set period of time after the article has been published by the publisher that I cannot share my work. So they want to make sure that people are going on to their website and purchasing the article before I share it myself for free.

So often that's six months. It could be for some journals I published in a year, maybe two years before I'm allowed to self archive and share that free version on my own website. So we have to check and make sure that we're following those policies for each journal that we publish in. And so that can be very time consuming, which is why a lot of researchers choose not to do this process because it's very time consuming.

You almost need someone, maybe a research assistant who is just dedicated to self archiving and helping you guide, guide through that process. But once you figure it out, When you can share it, you also want to look at which version you can [00:28:00] share. Oftentimes, that will be like Helen talked about earlier, the accepted version.

That's the unformatted but peer reviewed version of the manuscript. That's basically just a Word document. And then we put a license at the top, which is just really a disclaimer to say that this is the accepted version. It's just unformatted and we're following the journal's policies for sharing this work.

And then we just upload that onto whichever website, our own website or our institution's website that's been created for us so that clinicians or anyone can easily access the work. So to sort of reflect on this process, it's less likely if something that is labeled as a self archived manuscript or article, less likely for a clinician to stumble on that and have it be like a blog or someone's, you know, ramblings and musings and biased work.

Kate Grandbois: Is that inaccurate? Is that an accurate description? Yes, and it will say [00:29:00] at the top which version it is. So it will say exactly where it is in the peer review process, so it'll be very clear. And if there's any questions, just reach out to, to the author and they'll be able to tell you. But it should say right at the top there, which version it is.

I have to say, listening to all of this, I'm getting a lot of frustrated feelings about the publishing industry, who is really profiting off of a lot of free labor across this entire process, but that's probably a whole other episode. I'll just leave that there for everyone to, to think about. Um, what are some of the other.

Processes through which someone might be able to access an article legally that's behind a paywall. Do you have any other suggestions? Yeah, um, we mentioned emailing the corresponding author earlier. I think that is probably the easiest way if you've stumbled across an article through the publisher that [00:30:00] is, um, you know, directly inaccessible through that publisher emailing is probably the easiest way.

Helen Long: But I think another one that we haven't yet mentioned is PubMed Central. I think this is one that I think a lot of clinicians. Are still really familiar with from, uh, like grad school. Um, I remember both in undergrad and grad school, the, you know, when you're trying to write your, your research papers in your different classes.

And you raise your hand and you ask your professor I'm not able to access any of these articles. They always say we'll just go look on pub med. And it is true that PubMed is probably the next. Um, easiest option than if it's not directly open through the publisher that, um, if, if, if that paper has received any funding from the NIH, [00:31:00] um, the National Institutes of Health, which is a major funding organization in, um, in the US, um, the, The government I don't know what the best term.

I guess it was actually the White House that started a policy and 2008 that recognized the problem that a lot of taxpayer money. Was funding research. Many, many researchers in the U. S. are funded through the NIH, um, but all of this subsequent research coming from this funding is being paywalled. And so the White House, I think in 2008, built PubMed Central, which is essentially a repository that houses, uh, openly accessible versions of any NIH funded papers.

I believe that's correct. I'm not like a hundred percent sure that that's super accurate, but, [00:32:00] um, 

Kate Grandbois: we won't quote you. It's 

Helen Long: okay. Okay. Okay. Um, but it really is. It's, it's another, usually if you're looking for a paper online, uh, sometimes you come up with the PubMed version of that paper. And that is basically just another accepted version of the paper, and you'll even find a little user license on the top that says this is the accepted version of this paper, you'll find, you know, it was originally published in whatever journal that it was published in.

And so, that is a really great option. Um, and I wish that that was kind of an end all be all to like, okay, great, the, the American government has solved all our problems, but unfortunately, they, they, they had written in their original, um, policy that, Publishers were allowed to place up to a 12 month embargo, which means that's [00:33:00] yet another, that's more time that papers are still not available through PubMed.

And so if you're trying to do up to date evidence based practice you're basically if you're only relying on PubMed, you're really always going to be 12 months behind because you can't access it for 12 months through PubMed, which is a big reason why a lot of scientists are starting to self archive their own research on their websites so that It's more accessible, uh, sooner after publication.

Amy Wonkka: Yeah. I mean, all of that is so helpful. And I think as a clinician who's looking for these free articles online, one thing I'm taking away is that if I can find an accepted version, that makes me feel more confident, whether I'm finding it on PubMed, whether I'm finding it with my browser plugin, or I emailed the author, the corresponding author, they sent it to me.

That makes me feel better about it, even if it might not be the [00:34:00] very prettiest version of the paper. The content is solid. Um, in our, in our last couple of minutes, I know one other piece that we had talked about before we hit record was just Twitter. Um, and Twitter is being a potential place to get some of this information.

I didn't know if you guys wanted to talk a little bit about Twitter as a potential resource. 

Helen Long: Yeah, I've noticed more and more through Twitter that there are actually a lot more browser plugins than just on paywall. I'm just scanning Twitter you'll find different threads, discussing different. Plugins that allow you to access papers.

I found one recently called Paper Panda. It's very similar to Unpaywall. Uh, you just install it. I think it, it might just be required in Chrome, but you just install it and it's just another plugin that you can select when you're trying to access a paper. Um, I also found another one recently called [00:35:00] 12 foot ladder that bypasses news outlet paywalls, which I didn't realize I needed until I installed it.

Um, and so that I could access, uh, news articles. 

Danika Pfeiffer: Um.

Yeah, and I'll even say as an author of research, um, I collaborated with some of our CS Disseminate collaborators on an article for an ideology journal, and once it was published, I wasn't even able to access it myself as an SLP, so these are things that clinicians are facing, these are things that researchers are also facing, and we don't have all the answers, but hopefully these will be a few quick solutions that will help you get by If not, you can also always go to your public library or a university library if there's one near you.

Typically they will have subscriptions to these journals, so you can go in, find the PDF and print it out, take it home, email it to yourself. So that's just [00:36:00] one other way without having to pay for the article. All of this information has been incredibly helpful. I think a big takeaway for me is there should be no, no clinician should be experiencing any guilt around not being able to access the literature that you need to access.

Kate Grandbois: We had, um, one of our previous guests, Natalie Douglas, said this beautifully that she had no. She had no higher power whatsoever, but she absolved everyone from all of their guilt around not being to not being able to access the science that they needed to do their jobs. If there is any takeaway from all of these wonderful information that you've given us, it's that this industry is incredibly complex.

It is not working in our favor, and these, these barriers are very legitimate. So if you are feeling frustrated, if you are feeling irritated by all of this. You should be. Those are very valid feelings and all of these strategies [00:37:00] are incredibly helpful to get us over those barriers so that we can access the research that we need to do our jobs successfully.

Do you have any final words of advice for our audience? 

Helen Long: I just want to commend clinicians who are going through all of these, you know, you have to admit we've gone through like so many options to try to just do our jobs, you know, and I just have to commend clinicians out there for if you are using any of these strategies when you're just trying to, you know, do evidence based practice.

Thank you for your work. 

Danika Pfeiffer: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. It is, it can be very frustrating, very difficult to find this information, but I hope that you'll take away that at least reaching out to the researcher, we are very open to sharing our work. And as I mentioned earlier, always excited to talk about our work and what we're doing.

And so [00:38:00] please just reach out if you are hitting those paywalls. Um, and we're happy to share our work. 

Kate Grandbois: Thank you so much for everything. It was really wonderful having you here. We really appreciate it. 

Danika Pfeiffer: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. 

Kate Grandbois: Thank you so much for joining us in today's episode, as always, you can use this episode for ASHA CEUs. You can also potentially use this episode for other credits, depending on the regulations of your governing body. To determine if this episode will count towards professional development in your area of study.

Please check in with your governing bodies or you can go to our website, www.slpnerdcast.com all of the references and information listed throughout the course of the episode will be listed in the show notes. And as always, if you have any questions, please email us at info@slpnerdcast.com

thank you so much for joining us and we hope to welcome you back here again soon.

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